Fleury's last chance?

[Fire0nice228]

Said it back then and I'll say it again now.. the team couldnt play defense to save their lives even during 'the streak'.. the signs and symptoms of something very bad happening were obvious and manifested itself at exactly the wrong time against the worst possible opponent.

[newarenanow]

Should I throw away my Fleury bobblehead?

[Mr. Colby]

Did Yohe come up with this in one of his daily trips to southpointe to watch 8 guys do drills?

[Fast B]

I can't believe we have to go through this whole asinine "debate" again. This lockout can't end soon enough.

[Bathgate]

FYI, if you have not seen it, The Hockey News ranks Fleury 13th best goalie in the league. Since Vancouver has 2 goalies ranked ahead of Fleury, that means the Pens have the 12th best #1 goalie. It puts him in the top half. I don't know if his playoff disaster dropped him some spots from last year. Quick, Lundqvist, and Rinne are the top 3.

[Sarcastic]

Should we be worried/surprised with Fleury's struggles if he is coached by this guy?

Most goals allowed: Grant Fuhr and Gilles Meloche

What are the odds that two goaltenders could give up exactly 2,756 goals, more than any other netminders in NHL history? That's the case for Fuhr and Meloche, who share the mark for the most goals surrendered in a career.

They got there in different ways. Fuhr spent most of his career in Edmonton, earning five Stanley Cup rings and a berth in the Hall of Fame. He finished his career with a 3.38 goals-against average in 868 games played. Meloche played 788 games, most of them with losing teams. His 3.64 career GAA might not sound impressive until you consider that he was on a winning team just six times in 17 full seasons.

Fuhr and Meloche are the only goaltenders in NHL history to allow more than 2,700 goals in a career. Twenty-five have surrendered more than 2,000.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=642688

[mikey287]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

[Sarcastic]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

I wouldn't know about that. You'd have to find some chart of the most starts among all goalies. Because I bet there are other goalies with more of those and obviously have better stats. I don't know if Meloche was any good because I didn't watch him and don't know how he compared to others of his time, but from what I gather Fuhr isn't thought of as a great goalie either. Maybe you know more about that, but if Meloche sucked as a goalie - you tell me - then why is he coaching?

[SLF66]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

I wouldn't know about that. You'd have to find some chart of the most starts among all goalies. Because I bet there are other goalies with more of those and obviously have better stats. I don't know if Meloche was any good because I didn't watch him and don't know how he compared to others of his time, but from what I gather Fuhr isn't thought of as a great goalie either. Maybe you know more about that, but if Meloche sucked as a goalie - you tell me - then why is he coaching?

Give me a list of good former NHL players, who are now head coaches.

Bet that list isn't too long...

[mikey287]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

I wouldn't know about that. You'd have to find some chart of the most starts among all goalies. Because I bet there are other goalies with more of those and obviously have better stats. I don't know if Meloche was any good because I didn't watch him and don't know how he compared to others of his time, but from what I gather Fuhr isn't thought of as a great goalie either. Maybe you know more about that, but if Meloche sucked as a goalie - you tell me - then why is he coaching?

I'm currently working on a project to rank the top-40 goalies of all-time. I put together a quick list of 60, and Fuhr featured prominently...I had him top 30...and I really grill both Grant Fuhr and Billy Smith because I believe they both "defaulted" to being the goalies of the 80's...I'm not sure where we would get the idea that Fuhr wasn't good...

Re: giving up a ton of goals. Well, what did you want to happen?

Fuhr is 9th all time in Goalie GP, Meloche 15th...no one other goalie with at least 750 GP (maybe more, I didn't check) has had to spend more time in the 80's than those two...(1982-2000 for Fuhr, 1971-1988 for Meloche). The only other guys who get close are Roy and Barrasso. They had a chance to balance it out by playing into the dead puck era. Fuhr had to play on the 80's Oilers who played firewagon hockey in the highest scoring era ever...Meloche not only had to play in the 80's for bad teams, but also had to deal with 70's expansion teams...dear lord, Meloche goes from the California Golden Seals, to the Cleveland Barons, the underachieving, injury-riddled Minnesota North Stars, to the crap-tastic Penguins of the late 80's...despite all that, he has three top-10 finishes in GAA, three top-10 finishes in wins and appeared in 2 All-Star games God bless him...

To be honest, I didn't even consider Meloche for my top 60, but he should have gotten the same look that Kelly Hrudey got: a passing glance...which is noteworthy.

Re: Bad players, bad coaches? I'm surprised anyone would say this, to be honest. I guess Gretzky and Trottier's Jack Adams awards were lost in the mail? Look at the coaches in the league...you see a lot of HHOFers there? You can know things without being good at them yourself...as someone that is way more successful as a coach than a player, I can speak for this first hand...

[columbia]

Ted Williams was 54-100 as a manger.

[Idoit40fans]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

I wouldn't know about that. You'd have to find some chart of the most starts among all goalies. Because I bet there are other goalies with more of those and obviously have better stats. I don't know if Meloche was any good because I didn't watch him and don't know how he compared to others of his time, but from what I gather Fuhr isn't thought of as a great goalie either. Maybe you know more about that, but if Meloche sucked as a goalie - you tell me - then why is he coaching?

Give me a list of good former NHL players, who are now head coaches.

Bet that list isn't too long...

I don't really have a problem with Fleury, but lets be fair here. All you need to do to get a lot of starts is be significantly better than your backup. In this case, a pretty bad keeper could have been significantly better than Fleury's backup.

[Defence21]

Can't give up the most goals in history unless you're getting a lot of starts...if you're getting a lot of starts, someone important likes what you do...

I wouldn't know about that. You'd have to find some chart of the most starts among all goalies. Because I bet there are other goalies with more of those and obviously have better stats. I don't know if Meloche was any good because I didn't watch him and don't know how he compared to others of his time, but from what I gather Fuhr isn't thought of as a great goalie either. Maybe you know more about that, but if Meloche sucked as a goalie - you tell me - then why is he coaching?

Give me a list of good former NHL players, who are now head coaches.

Bet that list isn't too long...

I don't really have a problem with Fleury, but lets be fair here. All you need to do to get a lot of starts is be significantly better than your backup. In this case, a pretty bad keeper could have been significantly better than Fleury's backup.

I don't disagree with this theory for short term arguments, but for the longterm, a goalie won't keep his job and/or stay in the NHL if he isn't capable. Teams just aren't going to pay for it.

[Idoit40fans]

Again, I don't think there is anything to the idea that Fleury is "bad", but the counter to what you just posted is that the Pens just signed a starter quality goalie as his backup.

[Defence21]

Again, I don't think there is anything to the idea that Fleury is "bad", but the counter to what you just posted is that the Pens just signed a starter quality goalie as his backup.

My response was more in line with the Meloche/Fuhr discussion. Meloche has the most losses in the game, which many would think means he was terrible. But, as Mikey said, it also means he was trusted to play enough games to be the losingest goalie ever. It sounds weird, but it's true.

With regard to Fleury, I'm of the belief, and I'm working on a "Lacing Up" piece for FF that delves into this, that Vokoun is here to supplement Fleury and help Fleury be a better goalie, as opposed to replace Fleury.

[Idoit40fans]

Yeah thats definitely it. He should be able to easily eat 25-30 games, which seems to be about the number that would most benefit Fleury. This is all based on a full season of course...so maybe 2013-14.

[the wicked child]

Total number of games aside, I think Fleury not having to play in 23 straight games would be a good start.

[Rylan]

Total number of games aside, I think Fleury not having to play in 23 straight games would be a good start.

I think people really over look this.

[mikey287]

Total number of games aside, I think Fleury not having to play in 23 straight games would be a good start.

I think people really over look this.

Indeed they do. To stretch the point, I think less than a handful of goalies have led the league in GP and won the Vezina...it's not so much the 68 games vs. 63 games it's when they happened. 3 games in 4 nights. Back to back on the west coast. Things like that, and they add up and they accumulate over the course of the season. Even when the backup plays, you still accumulate that fatigue over the course of a season. I'm not saying that fatigue sits on you 100%, but it leaves a residue, so to speak.

[Lt. Dish]

Total number of games aside, I think Fleury not having to play in 23 straight games would be a good start.

I think people really over look this.

Indeed they do. To stretch the point, I think less than a handful of goalies have led the league in GP and won the Vezina...it's not so much the 68 games vs. 63 games it's when they happened. 3 games in 4 nights. Back to back on the west coast. Things like that, and they add up and they accumulate over the course of the season. Even when the backup plays, you still accumulate that fatigue over the course of a season. I'm not saying that fatigue sits on you 100%, but it leaves a residue, so to speak.

Absolutely. Not everyone is Marty Brodeur.

When I offer Fleury being run down and overworked as a (not the) primary factor in our playoff debacle, I get laughed at, but I maintain it. Plus, the D and goaltender feed off each other, no? I'm talking about hockey play not necessarily emotion. You would know much better than I, mikey.

[Rylan]

Ken Dryden never played more than 64 games in a season. Just saying.

[mikey287]

Yeah, I mean, certainly. (If I'm reading you right). Remember young Fleury, on those 2003 and 2004 teams. You see a goalie that doesn't trust his defense. He used to try to pick off cross-ice passes that were down low because he didn't feel anyone else could (and he was right, only Scuderi would actually do it) and he'd get his shortside picked up high from it rather often. And we lost, a lot. And then it can work in reverse. I've had teams where the players were, say, "B" caliber but the goalie was "D" caliber...the players try so hard to account for that on the rink, knowing that giving up a shot can be disastrous. It makes players do more - which sounds good - but it usually ends badly. When I coach, one of my first steps is ensuring trust and accountability. You have to believe in the guys around you, believe that they'll do their job correctly.

Just the other week, I had yelled at a player because he just wasn't in the right spot and he goes, "but coach, [player x] was right there, I was going to be standing next to him" and I told him, "you do what you're supposed to do and anyone that's doing it wrong is going to realize how stupid they look and/or hear it from me...you do your job, don't worry about anyone else's job, don't worry about anything but what you're supposed to be doing" ...and in that particular game, we were down 1-0 at the time and ended up winning 6-1. Not because of those words, but because of the adjustment that was made on the rink. Everything just kind of clicked into place and it's because everyone could play their own game, each shift from every player has a purpose out there, when you feel purposeful you do a good job, when you do a good job, you win...a lot. And that's the same thing here in Pittsburgh...if you don't have players that are doing their job, players that trust what's going on around them, what have you, there's no amount of skill that can override that...it just doesn't work. It can't.

So, if Ben Lovejoy is having second thoughts about Fleury, that plays a part. Now gaps are tighter and there's no margin for error (not a great thing for a less-than-average skilled d-man like Lovejoy), a player is more prone to leave his feet to block a shot but over does it and gets burned...because in this system, leaving your feet seems to be kind of a no-no...and you end up being more clever by half out there...so because Lovejoy didn't trust Fleury, that happened. Now Fleury sees this all game and goes, "what the hell is Lovejoy doing...I better be ready for [X] now" and then he's cheating because he sees something...and it's just a mess...

That can be terminated by good coaching though. You need someone to take control and say now, refresh, "this is right" and "this is wrong" and that's the end of it. Get everyone believing in what you're selling again.

[mikey287]

Ken Dryden never played more than 64 games in a season. Just saying.

Of course, slight adjustment because Dryden played in the old 78-80 game seasons. But the point is still a good one because Dryden rarely even played that much...rarely top-3 in minutes or GP (twice?).

That's the Scotty Bowman way...well, maybe more the Toe Blake way (Bowman being a disciple of Blake). Those 60's Habs teams had to manage Charlie Hodge/Gump Worsley and later Rogie Vachon and did it very well...Bowman in St. Louis had Jacques Plante and Glenn Hall and produced amazing results with them well after their respective primes (you should see Plante's save pct. numbers there, wow!), Bowman with Dryden and Bunny Larocque (plus others), even Bowman again with Pittsburgh - at the deadline, what does he do? Gets Ken Wregget because Wendell Young wasn't cutting it...down the stretch, Barrasso played 15 games to Wregget's 9. (If I'm not mistaken, that's a 50/30 split or so during the regular year if extrapolated). Al Arbour from him with Billy Smith and Chico Resch...Glen Sather - who was coached by Bowman at a point as well as another Bowman disciple in Jean-Guy Talbot (ironically, the guy that ended Bowman's playing career if memory serves) with Grant Fuhr and Andy Moog...later Bill Ranford who had a short peak...Mike Babcock just recently, look at the Osgood/Hasek GP split in 2008 when they won (43 for one, 41 for the other). Very interesting how things work like that sometimes...

[Lt. Dish]

mikey's thoughtful answer, supported by experiential and observational anecdotal evidence.

Thanks, mikey! After I typed "feeds off," I realized how imprecise it was, but you read me right.

[columbia]

Can you coach concentration, because I'd like to see that.