Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

[Mr. Colby]

I'm currently watching the MLB playoffs and thinking about what should have been...

Air your grievances here.

Optimism is also welcomed!

[Mr. Colby]

2012: 72-83, 4th in NL Central
2011: 72-90, 4th in NL Central
2010: 57-105, 6th in NL Central
2009: 62-99, 6th in NL Central
2008: 67-95, 6th in NL Central
2007: 68-94, 6th in NL Central
2006: 67-95, 5th in NL Central
2005: 67-95, 6th in NL Central
2004: 72-89, 5th in NL Central
2003: 75-87, 4th in NL Central
2002: 72-89, 4th in NL Central
2001: 62-100, 6th in NL Central
2000: 69-93, 5th in NL Central
1999: 78-83, 3rd in NL Central
1998: 69-93, 6th in NL Central
1997: 79-83, 2nd in NL Central
1996: 73-89, 5th in NL Central
1995: 58-86, 5th in NL Central
1994: 53-61, 3rd in NL Central
1993: 75-87, 5th in NL East

[ulf]

We had 79 wins this year! Don't sell these guys short!

[Mr. Colby]

In all seriousness, if 79-83 and 82-80 shouldn't make any difference to you, and as such "20 years of losing" shouldn't matter. 20 years of no playoffs is what really matters.

[schreibdog]

For as good as this team was after the first 4 months of this season, the collapse is what defines the 2012 Pirates and that's what will be remembered for a long time. It's a shame, really, because they were so good into early August (5th-best record in all of baseball on August 2nd). But, this team couldn't play even remotely close to .500 the last 2 months.

At an individual level, there are some very good things that came out of this year:
--Alvarez, despite the errors and ups-and-downs at the plate, has solidified the 3B position
--Jones showed that he can play every day and belongs at either 1B or RF
--Wandy and Burnett should be counted on as our #1 and #2 next year

I try to think about what they can do to make next year's team better, and I can't come up with many realistic scenarios.
--We're not going to sign Josh Hamilton or any other high profile free agent.
--NH isn't going to deal Taillon, Cole or Heredia to acquire more major league talent (and he shouldn't).
--Cole is the only guy in AAA that could potentially make an impact in 2013.
--The only guys that will fetch something of substance would be Jones and Hanrahan. But, we don't have much depth at either of their positions to deal them away.

In the end, this team needs a catcher and a strong performance from the corner outfield positions (sound familiar? It seems we were saying this 12 months ago). Given that Barmes is signed for another year, I don't think it's realistic to expect the Buccos to go after another SS.

Additionally, NH needs to acquire depth this offseason. Overpay if you have to and bring in some quality bats. This team doesn't have the depth as currently constructed to survive should a good offensive player go down with an injury.

I think you have to give Karstens and JMac the benefit of the doubt at Spring Training next year and put them in the rotation. Personally, I'd like to see McPherson break camp with the final rotation spot.

My final recommendation is to bring in a quality strength and conditioning coach immediately. I know it won't happen but it wouldn't hurt imo. This team ran out of gas after 100 games or so the last couple seasons. We need someone to show the young guys how to survive a 6-month grind and not break down.

[Lt. Dish]

I'm surprised that I'm feeling more than a little twinge of bitterness during this year's postseason. I don't remember feeling this way over the last 20 postseasons.

Hoka hey, yada, yada, yada...

[Lt. Dish]

My final recommendation is to bring in a quality strength and conditioning coach immediately. I know it won't happen but it wouldn't hurt imo. This team ran out of gas after 100 games or so the last couple seasons. We need someone to show the young guys how to survive a 6-month grind and not break down.

I agree with this.

[ulf]

Jones is gonna make some cash money in arbitration.

[Troy Loney]

- Any position player acquisition would likely cost too much in terms of either prospects or $$$.
- The only real hole in the lineup is the leadoff spot, the two spots on the field that are open to upgrade are catcher and shortstop. If they could somehow find a shortstop that could hit leadoff, their lineup would solid, with the catcher black hole buried in the 8 spot.
- I think inconsistency and injury concerns would prevent me from giving Karstens and McDonald respective spots in the rotation. I would let the two battle for the #5 spot and move the loser the #6 starter role with the opportunity to move to the rotation in a pinch. Ideally McDonald shows up to camp read, seizes a spot and pushes Karstens to the bullpen.
- McPherson and Locke should compete for a spot, and a veteran should be brought in to hopefully give some stability to the top of the rotation. Hopefully Cole is ready for full time rotation duty by June.

[KennyTheKangaroo]

kenny the kangaroo is pretty convinced that locke is zack duke part deaux. i.e. hes going to pitch six innings, give up 4 runs, 3 of which are on a home run. then he can say "oh gee whiz it was that one bad inning, if i could just have that one pitch back. blah blah blah"

mcdonald and karstens should get the charlie morton treatment. they get one more chance, but if they stink, or get hurt, cast them away.

[ulf]

Do yous guys think electric stuff/ground chuck will be in the 2013 rotation?

[KennyTheKangaroo]

He wont be on the damned team, let alone the roatation.

[Troy Loney]

He wont be on the damned team, let alone the roatation.

He will be non tendered, but i hope chuck morton accepts whatever offer the pirates extend to him to allow him to rehabilitate and make one more go at it here in pittsburgh.

[LeopardLetang]

there is no way you could convince me not to hand karstens and mcdonald rotation spots next year. i'd give mcdonald a leash until the allstar break even.

[Kraftster]

there is no way you could convince me not to hand karstens and mcdonald rotation spots next year. i'd give mcdonald a leash until the allstar break even.

That's my thought. I mean, who exactly is knocking down the door with anywhere close to the upside of those guys, particularly Jmac?

[Troy Loney]

there is no way you could convince me not to hand karstens and mcdonald rotation spots next year. i'd give mcdonald a leash until the allstar break even.

I'd feel more comfortable if Karstens came into the year as the 6th starter.

[schreibdog]

there is no way you could convince me not to hand karstens and mcdonald rotation spots next year. i'd give mcdonald a leash until the allstar break even.

That's my thought. I mean, who exactly is knocking down the door with anywhere close to the upside of those guys, particularly Jmac?

Right. You have Cole eventually coming but he won't be here until at least mid-season. Karstens was outstanding the first half of 2011 and JMac in the first half this year. I don't see how a FA signing or Jeff Locke is a better option than one of these two to start the year.

I also read that Karstens might get non-tendered and I don't think the team can afford to be giving away talent to other teams for no return. He might not be great but I don't think we have a better option ready to go.

[ulf]

I'd be disappointed if we got rid of karstens. I'd also like Chaz to get one more shot.

[KennyTheKangaroo]

IKTKO, karstens and GFJ are two guys that are waaaaay more important to the pirates than they would be to other teams.

[LeopardLetang]

there is no way you could convince me not to hand karstens and mcdonald rotation spots next year. i'd give mcdonald a leash until the allstar break even.

I'd feel more comfortable if Karstens came into the year as the 6th starter.

i agree with your concerns in general. he's never pitched a full season and you can't have enough depth. but i could argue that i could see karstens coming into the season as our #1 starter before i'd see him as the #6 starter.

the dude has really learned to pitch. 253IP the last two years with a 3.59ERA and 1.19WHIP with only 48 walks. i also love his makeup - i remember him mowing down brewers at times when no other pirate had any balls to sit on and going toe to toe with halladay and the phillies.

for as good as burnett is, and as clearly our #1 as could be, he was 202IP 3.51 1.24, but was bad the year before (5.15 1.43). and wandy is as consistent as they come with around a 3.60 1.29 over the last 3 years.

i'd like to see another top end starter added, but it wouldn't be at the expense of karstens at this point in my view.

[Mr. Colby]

I wouldn't put it past NH to bring in another veteran starter.

I'd like to see AJ, Juan D, Free Agent Vet, JMac, McPherson, with Karstens as the spot-starter/long-relief and Locke as depth (could even start in AAA)

[LeopardLetang]

i'm just surprised some people are preferring mcpherson to karstens. i really like mcpherson, but he's pitched a total of 18.1 innings in AAA. when karstens is healthy, he's been better than AJ was last year. if he's healthy he's starting for me even if he's poor in spring training.

if mcpherson pitches half the year in AAA does that help keep him under control for longer or not? the problem there is that he pitched only 90 some innings last year so he'll get shutdown early if he's a starter in AAA. but he could use the experience. but he could also really help the pirates out of the bullpen. maybe it will be another mixed bag for him this year. get 60IP in at AAA starting, come up to spot start for some injuries and then strengthen the bullpen if the pirates are in contention down the stretch. otherwise, take a turn in the rotation 6-7 times at the end of the year. if the pirates aren't in contention, they can trade burnett and replace him with FEAR, locke, cole etc.

anyway, these things will work themselves out and it's a good problem to have cliche.

[Troy Loney]

The KDKA news just implied that the Pirates will pursue Josh Hamilton, does anyone have any idea whose feeding that nonsense?

[MRandall25]

Hopes and dreams

[columbia]

The KDKA news just implied that the Pirates will pursue Josh Hamilton, does anyone have any idea whose feeding that nonsense?

PBP?