JS© wrote:out of curiosity, why Hasek over Roy?
I mean, just the macro stuff should go a long way to clinching this for Hasek...if I need to go into detail later, I will...
He played, what, 12 or 13 seasons in the NHL, right? He didn't even become a starter until he was 28 (came over just a few years before that)
- 6 Vezinas (other notable finishes: 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 8th), so he wins the best goalie award for half of his career roughly and was top-8 for virtually his whole NHL career...that's really a lot of notoriety and to not really have a down year in all that time and on different teams, is really remarkable.
- All-Star Voting (6-time First-Team All-Star): 1st, 1st*, 1st, 1st*, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 7th - and then four more in the top-7
- Hart trophy record: 1st, 1st* 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 8th - Look at this Hart trophy record! 5x he was top-3 for it! That's not a goalie award...at all. And he was deemed so valuable that he won it twice, once almost unaminously (and the other time wasn't far off either).
* = near-unaminous decision
Background on the Hart: It's been around since 1923-24. Here's all the times it's been given to a goalie: 1929 Roy Worters (made a bad Pittsburgh team look really good, won it head-to-head against Hainsworth's 22 SO in 44 games season), 1950 Chuck Rayner, 1954 Al Rollins (on a last place Chicago team), 1962 Jacques Plante (first year without Doug Harvey, proved himself), 2002 Jose Theodore (tied with Iginla for the award).
So, there we go, it's going on 100 years now and we have 5 goalies that ever won it (and one was a tie)...and then Hasek, who won it twice back to back and was a strong, strong consideration for it another three times on top of that. Sickening.
Just for the record, because this is very one-sided, here's Patrick Roy's Hart trophy record: 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th. Stellar, really stellar. That's why he's the second best goalie of all-time. Damn near all goalies don't get that far. Roy had a few more years to get those, but that's not really the point. It's a terrific Hart record, but it pales in comparison to Hasek.
They all do:Finishing Top-3 for Hart (Goaltenders):
Brodeur: 3 (all thirds)
I don't even want to break it down statistically, but his dominance over his peers in save pct. when adjusting for era is just silly. So far ahead of the pack...
Led the NHL in save pct. 6 straight seasons (5 other top-10 finishes to go along with it). Led the NHL in shutouts 4 times (6 more times he was top-6).
Officially, he's the all-time leader in save pct. Of course, that's not necessarily true as it's only been officially kept since 1983. But let's go with that...he's the save pct. leader for goalies since 1983...save pct. has been going nowhere but up since he retired. So, what does that mean? Out of all the other top-12, they're all active! In fact, Hasek is one of just two not active in the top-18 (the other is Cristobal Huet). Among the top-30, only Huet (14th), Fernandez (19th), Legace (20th), Roy (24th), Hebert (27th) and Dunham (30th) are not active in the NHL! A list that includes Marc-Andre Fleury! (fittingly, 29th)
To further show the effects of era on save percentage, here's a list of the goalies from 50th-100th on the same list that are currently active
Boucher (55th), Raycroft (57th)...and I'm done. That's why when I say "asterisk this Tim Thomas and Brian Elliott nonsense", it's not for fervent hatred, it's because it's a different time...that's another story, this is about Hasek...
Lost in all this talk is that we're only talking about the NHL. Hasek was a pro for nearly 10 years before coming over (I think he was the youngest pro in history when he turned professional in 1981 in the Czechoslovakian league - likely the 3rd best league in the world at the time [NHL, RSL, Czech] - and conventional wisdom suggests goalies take longer to develop, pfft!).
- U18 WJC Best Goaltender award
- U20 WJC Best Goaltender award
- Represented Czechoslovakia (again, the 3rd best hockey power in the world) at the World Championships at age 18! And won a silver!- Czech League best goalie of the year award (x5 - 1986, 1987, 1988, 1989, 1990)- Czech League Player of the Year (x3 - 1987, 1989, 1990)
- Czech League Champion (x2 - 1987, 1989)
- World Championships Best Goaltender Award (x2 - 1987, 1989)
- Czech League Playoff MVP (1989)
- Olympics Best Goalie (1998), Gold Medal winner
I mean, look, they had an award just for him "Best Goaltender" in the Czech League and still felt the need to give him the "Player of the Year" award as well because he was so overwhelmingly good. Weird how that carried over into the NHL even, as illustrated above. As for the prestige of that "Player of the Year" award (called the Izvestia Golden Stick, if memory serves (Tomas?), it has a strong correlation to greatness: Jan Suchy, Frantisek Posposil, Vladimir Martinec, Milan Novy, Peter Stastny pretty much owned the award...for those familiar with international hockey in the 1970's and 80's, you know those names and they mean a lot to you.
Roy's only international experience came in 1998 - the first best-on-best Olympics, where Roy lead Canada to, what, a 5th place finish was it? Losing head-to-head against Hasek.