LGP NASCAR Thread

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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:27 am

offsides wrote:I do NOT like restrictor plate racing. Apparently Dale doesn't either.

"Earnhardt was not required to go to the care center for an examination at the time. Immediately after the race, he called restrictor-plate racing ''bloodthirsty'' and said he no longer had any desire to compete at Daytona and Talladega."

http://msn.foxsports.com/nascar/story/D ... ut-2-races

He backed off these comments on Tuesday.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:34 am

TheHammer24 wrote:
relantel wrote:And Regan Smith benefits bigtime again from an Earnhardt, having won his first race at Dega in 2008 for DEI (that NASCAR took away and gave to Tony Stewart when Tony forced Regan below the yellow line).

How messed up would it be if Regan Smith won in the 88 much like McMurray won in Sterling Marlin's 40 in Charlotte in 2002.

They should have Earnhardt run a lap so he can get points.

I think they are in 2013 mode, as that Dega wreck really put a nail in their Chase chances. Strange, that without the chase, they are still in it, in 4th only 11 points back. 7 spots and 40 more points behind in the Chase format, which is about the opposite of what the Chase intended. It's almost as if the current points format has almost made the Chase obsolete. Long story short, in the format that exists, they are out of it, so there is no reason for the start & change driver routine, such as Earnhardt Sr used after the 1996 Talladega wreck at Indy & Mike Skinner.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:34 am

Man, how far Kurt Busch has fallen since his championship season
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 11:39 am

shafnutz05 wrote:Man, how far Kurt Busch has fallen since his championship season

He is still a top ten (if not better) driver in the garage. But the sponsors are terrified. JGR was rumored to have considered him for a 4th car before they signed Kenseth, and Richard Childress said he would put Kurt in a fourth car if they could find sponsorship. Someone on speed actually predicted he would make the Chase in the 78. That's far-fetched, IMO, but I think he could finish in the top 15 in points.

relantel wrote:I think they are in 2013 mode, as that Dega wreck really put a nail in their Chase chances. Strange, that without the chase, they are still in it, in 4th only 11 points back. 7 spots and 40 more points behind in the Chase format, which is about the opposite of what the Chase intended. It's almost as if the current points format has almost made the Chase obsolete. Long story short, in the format that exists, they are out of it, so there is no reason for the start & change driver routine, such as Earnhardt Sr used after the 1996 Talladega wreck at Indy & Mike Skinner.


I don't know if that's the opposite of what the Chase intended. Many other drivers would be out under the old point system including the 11, 24, and 5 (and Stewart wouldn't have sniffed the Championship last year) who had great regular seasons but-for some inopportune DNFs. I think the solution is to alter the points system in the Chase. I don't like the idea of giving 1-12 points, but I think a one-point-per-position system for the Chase guys that only runs from 1-20 with more bonus points for a win is the way to go. That way everyone who finishes lower than 20 (which rarely happens outside of Dega or a DNF) would get 0 points. Under that system Gordon would appropriately be in it.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:16 pm

hammer, perhaps. But when the top 3 drivers of the regular season after four races were T9-11-12, yet without it would be T1,4,5 right now. Classic points - top 4 within 11 points of leader, top 8 within one race. Chase? leader has 14 point lead and only three drivers are closer than 40 points. Chase was supposed to tighten things up, not spread them out - yet its success is simply in allowing the 10-11-12 to draw way closer than they otherwise would have been. Akin to Talladega, hang around the back until the end and benefit by others misfortune, rather than achieving on performance. Sure, there are some teams that mess around and test once already reasonbly assured of making the Chase, and that they play things differently than they would if all of those points mattered.

I still think the Chase was a mistake. It was a reactionary system put in place in response to Kenseth blowing away the field in 2003. This season's Chase vs Classic illustrates that no system is perfect. Ideally champion should be the best team across the whole season, not just 30% of it. I about feel worse for Biffle than Kenseth or Jr this year, as Biffle led almost the entire regular season and is now a whole race out of the lead, where under the classic system he would be tied for the lead.

(I've pulled the "classic" points from Talladega's race page on racing-reference.info) (in the spoiler tag to save space):
Spoiler:
Code: Select all
Points standings after this race:
Rank Driver Points Diff
1   Brad Keselowski  2179     
2   Jimmie Johnson  2165    -14   
3   Denny Hamlin  2156    -23   
4   Kasey Kahne  2143    -36   
5   Clint Bowyer  2139    -40   
6   Jeff Gordon  2137    -42   
7   Tony Stewart  2133    -46   
8   Martin Truex, Jr.  2131    -48   
9   Kevin Harvick  2130    -49   
10   Greg Biffle  2130    -49   
11   Dale Earnhardt, Jr.  2128    -51   
12   Matt Kenseth  2117    -62   
13   Kyle Busch  912    -1267   
14   Ryan Newman  865    -1314   
15   Carl Edwards  844    -1335   
16   Paul Menard  830    -1349   
17   Marcos Ambrose  816    -1363   
18   Joey Logano  797    -1382   
19   Jeff Burton  748    -1431   
20   Jamie McMurray  714    -1465   

 Non-'Chase' standings after this race:
Rank Driver Points Diff
1   Greg Biffle  1038     
2   Brad Keselowski  1038    0   
3   Jimmie Johnson  1036    -2   
4   Dale Earnhardt, Jr.  1027    -11   
5   Matt Kenseth  1011    -27   
6   Denny Hamlin  994    -44   
7   Martin Truex, Jr.  993    -45   
8   Clint Bowyer  991    -47   
9   Kevin Harvick  971    -67   
10   Tony Stewart  934    -104   
11   Kasey Kahne  927    -111   
12   Jeff Gordon  914    -124   
13   Kyle Busch  912    -126   
14   Ryan Newman  865    -173   
15   Carl Edwards  844    -194   
16   Paul Menard  830    -208   
17   Marcos Ambrose  816    -222   
18   Joey Logano  797    -241   
19   Jeff Burton  748    -290   
20   Jamie McMurray  714    -324   
 
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 12:26 pm

Those are good points, and I agree that best in season is best over entire season -- but America doesn't like that. While European team sports compete over an entire season, America loves playoffs. Also Rel, I think under the old points system it would be a two-horse race between BK and JJ, given the way the two are running even though Biff and Jr. are close by.

My system is below. Only real change is Gordon's relevance.

1. BK
2. JJ -14
3. DH -23
4. Gordon -27
5. Kahne -36
6. Bowyer -40
7. Stewart -44
8. Kenseth -47
9. Harvick -49
10. Bifle -49

But the most important aspect of the Chase is the competitiveness getting into it. Under the old system no one would have cared about KyBu, Newman, Edwards, Gordon, Kahne -- pretty much everyone but Hamlin, Stewart, BK, Biff, Jr., and JJ for a couple months now.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:02 pm

*worth noting my referring to old points means the current system w/o chase, not the 1975-2010 points sytem.

The 2011-present one is far less forgiving of a bad day. I don't know where JGord would be under that one, but the additional separation of top 5, top 10 in it, along with not losing as much for the 35th, he has to be closer to the leader in the 2010 system than now given the three top 3s. 67-170-170-165 if no laps led - 572 - to Kese 195-150-195-146 - 686 or 114 behind. Seems like a lot, but 114/151 = 75.4% of possible point gain in one race. Current system - 42/47 is 89.3% of possible point gain in one race, or 14% further behind. (Each led in three of four chase races so far - didn't search to caluclate whether most laps or not. I've assigned 195 to the winner, but that was max points so Kes might be close to total but JGord would be 10-15 points closer, further widening the percentage gap.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:05 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:But the most important aspect of the Chase is the competitiveness getting into it. Under the old system no one would have cared about KyBu, Newman, Edwards, Gordon, Kahne -- pretty much everyone but Hamlin, Stewart, BK, Biff, Jr., and JJ for a couple months now.


This is a good point, from a fan insterest standpoint... but for all real practical purpose those racing for the final Chase spots really aren't racing well enough to be title factors. (Stewart an exception last year to prove the rule, though the 14 and 88 faded throughout the summer of 2011 to hold onto Chase berths)
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:28 pm

relantel wrote:*worth noting my referring to old points means the current system w/o chase, not the 1975-2010 points sytem.

The 2011-present one is far less forgiving of a bad day. I don't know where JGord would be under that one, but the additional separation of top 5, top 10 in it, along with not losing as much for the 35th, he has to be closer to the leader in the 2010 system than now given the three top 3s. 67-170-170-165 if no laps led - 572 - to Kese 195-150-195-146 - 686 or 114 behind. Seems like a lot, but 114/151 = 75.4% of possible point gain in one race. Current system - 42/47 is 89.3% of possible point gain in one race, or 14% further behind. (Each led in three of four chase races so far - didn't search to caluclate whether most laps or not. I've assigned 195 to the winner, but that was max points so Kes might be close to total but JGord would be 10-15 points closer, further widening the percentage gap.

I gotcha. Yeah, I think NASCAR punishes DNFs way too harshly.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:30 pm

Also, we haven't discussed this, but NASCAR eliminated the Top 35 Rule for next year. Does anyone think Danica will DNQ any race? She's been 38, 41, 28, 40 this year.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:55 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:Also, we haven't discussed this, but NASCAR eliminated the Top 35 Rule for next year. Does anyone think Danica will DNQ any race? She's been 38, 41, 28, 40 this year.

I have been waiting for this moment since they announced the top35 rule.

Apparently random draw is coming back to qualifying too.

So... Double Yay.

When they go to Daytona, it will again be the top 14 in each heat race that gets into the Daytona 500. (Robby Gordon finished 7th in one of the heat races a few years ago and missed the 500 with the top 35 rule). Far more drama. Pole day sets spots 1-2; heat winners 3-4 plus next 13 in each heat race to set 5-30, then six on time, 6 provisionals, and one PC provisional. If front row starter wins heat race, then 2-15 make field. (Really, front row starter finishes top-14, the 15th finisher makes the 500)

I think I've mentioned the story before - think it was the 10 car (MB2 at the time maybe?), either with Johnny Benson or Scott Riggs depending on the actual year, where a couple teams in the low to mid 20s in owner points missed a race because the provisionals were all needed by cars higher in points. It used to be if a team was in the top 25 in owners points, they weren't charged for provisionals, but teams outside were, and only accumulated 1 every 8 races after starting the season with a finite amount. Such that a driver/team had to have a provisional left, and hope enough cars in front of them got in on speed so it would be available to them. Of course, there used to be 2nd day qualifying at most tracks, where 1-25 were locked in on day 1, and day 2 would allow teams to go out and improve their position. This led to some situations where the 26th starter put down a lap faster than the pole sitter.

Nothing will improve performance like the prospect of not making the race.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:24 pm

as for Danica.. good question. A number of DNFs can be humbling. Just ask Michael Waltrip about the first year of MWR with Toyota in 2007, or Red Bull's first season with Brian Vickers missing a number of races. Vickers would win a race the next season. MWR would win twice with Reutimann (in 08, and 10, I think) before this year landing two in the Chase (And two wins with Boywer and Truex oooo so close to a couple himself)
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby CBear3 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:39 pm

Don't think it'll be a problem for Danica. Her current Q performances are largely based on spending most of Friday in conservative race trim just learning the car/track combo.
Even then, there's not going to be too many cars going home each weekend, so she'll still only have to beat out 1 or two cars.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:03 pm

Regan Smith ended up 7th fastest in opening practice, and will go out 7th from last in quals later.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:10 pm

relantel wrote:Regan Smith ended up 7th fastest in opening practice, and will go out 7th from last in quals later.

That's uber-impressive. That's faster, albeit slightly, than Kahne and Johnson.

I had no idea practice was today. I usually live-update it. So happy to see Hamlin was quickest.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Thu Oct 11, 2012 6:16 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
relantel wrote:Regan Smith ended up 7th fastest in opening practice, and will go out 7th from last in quals later.

That's uber-impressive. That's faster, albeit slightly, than Kahne and Johnson.

I had no idea practice was today. I usually live-update it. So happy to see Hamlin was quickest.

Fall Charlotte has been thursday night quals for quite a number of years now, probably as long as they have run the race on Sat night.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:33 pm

Wow....never would have guessed this.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nascar/2012/10/13/with-dale-earnhardt-jr-out-no-north-carolina-driver-in-sprint-cup-race/1631645/

A sport spawned by moonshiners racing through red clay hills and grown under the guidance of native sons Richard Petty and Dale Earnhardt, NASCAR and North Carolina are inexorably linked.

But for the first time since 1961, tonight's NASCAR Sprint Cup Series race at Charlotte Motor Speedway will be held without a driver from North Carolina in the field.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:02 pm

Crazy start to the Charlotte race!
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby shafnutz05 on Sat Oct 13, 2012 9:03 pm

48-11-2 in the top 3. Can't ask for much better than that, except for the lack of lead lap racers.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:33 am

Another fuel mileage finish. Bowyer wins, 11-48 wind up 2nd/3rd, as the only cars who made it. Keselowski dominates, but was short on fuel and finished 11th after running out coming to get fuel around 55 to go. Lost a lot of time, probably finishes ahead of Biffle (4th) otherwise. Johnson gained 7, Hamlin gained 8. In the end, only 6 cars scored on the lead lap.

On a side note, 2nd straight win for a car with pink a prominent color.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun Oct 14, 2012 5:16 pm

relantel wrote:Another fuel mileage finish. Bowyer wins, 11-48 wind up 2nd/3rd, as the only cars who made it. Keselowski dominates, but was short on fuel and finished 11th after running out coming to get fuel around 55 to go. Lost a lot of time, probably finishes ahead of Biffle (4th) otherwise. Johnson gained 7, Hamlin gained 8. In the end, only 6 cars scored on the lead lap.

On a side note, 2nd straight win for a car with pink a prominent color.

I was blown away when BK held off Jimmy on the run in which BK stayed out. I didn't think the 2 was fast--he qualified poorly and wasn't charging early. The 2 had this coming. He has pulled a rabbit out of his hat so many times to make up for poor track position that it was bound to backfire.

I think Denny could have won. His car was faster, and he pitted two laps after Bowyer. He could have caught Bowyer. He also could have forced Bowyer to run out; he did on the burnout so he was at best one lap to the good.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Fri Oct 19, 2012 11:11 am

Denny took a lick at Kansas yesterday, destroyed his primary car and felt "dizzy" enough to be checked out in the care center a second time.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:02 pm

Ouch. 43 leading, hits wall in middle of green flag stops. Traps 48/11 lap down. They get it back, but Jimmie hits wall. Keselowski went from being mid-20s to looking to be fairly secure in points lead coming out. Bowyer 2nd in points as they run.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby TheHammer24 on Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:26 pm

Now Jimmy and Denny in top 5. Top 7 cars need to pit twice. Rest of lead lappers are going to try to make it on one more just like last week. Need lots more cautions.
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Re: LGP NASCAR Thread

Postby relantel on Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:31 pm

Tony causes this one, lots of single car incidents today.
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