Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:26 pm

tfrizz wrote:
offsides wrote:
Godric wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Godric wrote:NHL... What a bunch of **** idiots

Growing sport.... but they just want to kill it


65%.

I can't put it on the owners anymore


I thought hockey players were different than most other professional athletes. I was wrong.


They are. For the most part, NHLers are much less educated than NFL and NBA players... since many NHLers only have a "high school" education while many NFL/NBA players have at least some college.


Do you really thing they attend college to get some sort of education?
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Re: Lockout

Postby Godric on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:32 pm

tfrizz wrote:
offsides wrote:
Godric wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Godric wrote:NHL... What a bunch of **** idiots

Growing sport.... but they just want to kill it


65%.

I can't put it on the owners anymore


I thought hockey players were different than most other professional athletes. I was wrong.


They are. For the most part, NHLers are much less educated than NFL and NBA players... since many NHLers only have a "high school" education while many NFL/NBA players have at least some college.


I'd say its meager precentage of College Athletes who have the capacity for a 250k Education let alone athletes that actually pursue being educated.

I'm looking at you Ike Taylor and James Harrison
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tim Thomasen on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:32 pm

tfrizz wrote:
offsides wrote:
Godric wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Godric wrote:NHL... What a bunch of **** idiots

Growing sport.... but they just want to kill it


65%.

I can't put it on the owners anymore


I thought hockey players were different than most other professional athletes. I was wrong.


They are. For the most part, NHLers are much less educated than NFL and NBA players... since many NHLers only have a "high school" education while many NFL/NBA players have at least some college.


I don't know about that. I followed the NBA lockout (Boston Celtics fan) and the type of dumb statements the NHL players are saying mirror the same rethoric the NBA players were saying. To me there both the same in regards to how educated the players are.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:35 pm

tfrizz wrote:Hold on a minute. The NHLPA didn't ask explicitly for 65% of HRR.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012 ... r-2012-13/

The NHLPA asked them to guarantee $1.9-billion and a 5% increase each year after that. It's a ridiculous request, but it's nowhere near the 65% being claimed by the NHL. It is exactly what it is - 57%. If revenue grows at 5% it'll still be 57% of HRR; if revenue grows at 7% it'll be 56% of HRR; if revenue grows by 3% it'll be 58% of HRR.

The idea of the NHLPA's share not being linked directly to revenue is insane, and I have a hard time believe this was even a serious proposal.


Are you sure on that? Because I trust Daly a lot more than the Fehr brothers. Maybe it has to do with the fact players want to get paid for the full season, no matter how many games are to be played.
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Re: Lockout

Postby offsides on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:52 pm

Gabe wrote:The sporting world is a little different, but as a whole, don't kid yourself folks, unions are big businesses in their own right. They take in a lot of money in dues, and the average joe gets very little say in where that money goes.


Yep, I was in the USWA for 24 years. Gave them lots of money every pay based on hours worked, but had very little, if any say in policy or where the money went. They also decided when it was time to vote on a proposed contract, not me.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:57 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
tfrizz wrote:Hold on a minute. The NHLPA didn't ask explicitly for 65% of HRR.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012 ... r-2012-13/

The NHLPA asked them to guarantee $1.9-billion and a 5% increase each year after that. It's a ridiculous request, but it's nowhere near the 65% being claimed by the NHL. It is exactly what it is - 57%. If revenue grows at 5% it'll still be 57% of HRR; if revenue grows at 7% it'll be 56% of HRR; if revenue grows by 3% it'll be 58% of HRR.

The idea of the NHLPA's share not being linked directly to revenue is insane, and I have a hard time believe this was even a serious proposal.


Are you sure on that? Because I trust Daly a lot more than the Fehr brothers. Maybe it has to do with the fact players want to get paid for the full season, no matter how many games are to be played.


I am 99% sure. Daly is making his 65% claim based off the projected revenue for a shortened season. If there is no season and they get a full 2013-14 season in and HRR stayed at $3.3-billion, then it works out as I described. It's still ridiculous, no matter how you look at it.

For reference, if year 1 revenues stayed at $3.3-billion it would take 4 years of 8.77% growth for the players' share to reach 50% in year 5. :face:
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:58 pm

Gaucho wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
offsides wrote:
Godric wrote:]

65%.

I can't put it on the owners anymore


I thought hockey players were different than most other professional athletes. I was wrong.


They are. For the most part, NHLers are much less educated than NFL and NBA players... since many NHLers only have a "high school" education while many NFL/NBA players have at least some college.


Do you really thing they attend college to get some sort of education?


Most of them don't take anything meaningful, but "college" still looks better on an application/resume than "high school" if they ever needed to go down that road.

I know a lot of the (hockey) players here take a specialized business administration degree that lets them graduate with an MBA in 5 years - coincidentally, CIS eligibility limits hockey players to 5 seasons.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:00 pm

offsides wrote:
Gabe wrote:The sporting world is a little different, but as a whole, don't kid yourself folks, unions are big businesses in their own right. They take in a lot of money in dues, and the average joe gets very little say in where that money goes.


Yep, I was in the USWA for 24 years. Gave them lots of money every pay based on hours worked, but had very little, if any say in policy or where the money went. They also decided when it was time to vote on a proposed contract, not me.


Yup, that's unionisation for you. The NHLPA is no different, and it's why the players won't speak out - Fehr won't listen, and all it does is weaken their position.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Mr. Colby on Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:39 pm

shmenguin wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
shmenguin wrote:recchi should know. maybe more than anyone in '04, he lost a lot of his abilities by missing that full year.


28-36-64 at age 38 suggests otherwise (7-9-16 in the playoffs)


Those numbers were completely bogus


LOL he put up 68 points the very next season... you're nuts
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Re: Lockout

Postby Troy Loney on Wed Nov 14, 2012 8:58 am

Mr. Colby wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:
shmenguin wrote:recchi should know. maybe more than anyone in '04, he lost a lot of his abilities by missing that full year.


28-36-64 at age 38 suggests otherwise (7-9-16 in the playoffs)


Those numbers were completely bogus


LOL he put up 68 points the very next season... you're nuts


He was leeching off of Crosby.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:16 am

His 64 point season wasn't bogus - I confused it for the following season. Which was complete BS. His even strength scoring was on par with talbot and Christensen despite playing with a guy who put up 125 points. That was the year where Sid, Geno and Gonchar spoon fed their linemates about a trillion power play points - and it didn't hurt that we had an unbelievable number of PPs per game. Other than the old argument of "if you actually watched him play, you'd know the real story", there isn't much evidence that he was terrible, but then again...if you actually watched him play, you'd know the real story

But to my original point, despite his production in 05, there was still a major drop off in his abilities because of that year off.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:55 am

Sid's interview.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=409415

What stuck out at me is this part:
NHLPA special counsel Steve Fehr told a panel in Toronto on Monday that three issues remain to be solved between the owners and players: the split of money, player contract rights and who pays for the damage caused by the lockout.

I think that means they want owners to go into their personal bank accounts and pay out the full season's salary to players. Not going to happen. I mean. Haha.

The prospects of hockey any time soon are pretty grim. I know I'm not counting on it.

I think a couple of comments signal people's perception. A guy who sticks up for the players got a -108 so far. And someone who wrote he has no sympathy for Crosby who's to make $8.7 million to play a game this year, +106.

I don't get a guy like Crosby. He is willing to lose 8 or 10 million for this season (whatever he's to make), to make how much extra over the next several years with a new CBA? Well, maybe not willing. He's risking it. Because the Fehrs want owners to pay up for any damage caused. The PA has a couple of bozos running things. Just my opinion.

Sid, if you're reading this. WTF.
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Re: Lockout

Postby redwill on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:37 am

Gaucho wrote:Do you really thing they attend college to get some sort of education?


When I was teaching at Wichita State, one of the grad assistants taught a very basic class that had the star basketball player, Maurice Evans, in it. When he came to class, Evans would immediately put his feet up on the desk and go to sleep.
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Re: Lockout

Postby columbia on Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:43 am

redwill wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Do you really thing they attend college to get some sort of education?


When I was teaching at Wichita State, one of the grad assistants taught a very basic class that had the star basketball player, Maurice Evans, in it. When he came to class, Evans would immediately put his feet up on the desk and go to sleep.



That's pretty much what I do, when I get to work.
Perfect professional training.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 pm

The owners locked the players out, not the other way around, so I don't think it's that ridiculous to expect the owners to pay for the lockout. At the same time, I don't think that stance is very helpful.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:57 pm

Gaucho wrote:The owners locked the players out, not the other way around, so I don't think it's that ridiculous to expect the owners to pay for the lockout. At the same time, I don't think that stance is very helpful.


Both sides locked each other out. You can't expect a team to open the arena gates if it knows they're only to lose more money. Maybe Fehr should have started negotiating a year ago, but he wasn't ready. And they can't expect owners to pay if there is no money coming in from the games.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:00 pm

They certainly should have started negotiations way earlier. Again, the lockout was inevitable, just like the next one will be, and that's what p's me off the most.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:08 pm

they could have started the negotiations 6 years ago - we still wouldn't have hockey in november
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:17 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The owners locked the players out, not the other way around, so I don't think it's that ridiculous to expect the owners to pay for the lockout. At the same time, I don't think that stance is very helpful.


Both sides locked each other out. You can't expect a team to open the arena gates if it knows they're only to lose more money. Maybe Fehr should have started negotiating a year ago, but he wasn't ready. And they can't expect owners to pay if there is no money coming in from the games.


This is typical Fehr negotiations. He must be really good at it when you look at how rich baseball players have gotten. In every other league you negotiate with the Upper Class clubs to keep them rich and happy and winning. In Hockey there are only 5 rich clubs. SO you have to work a CBA that keeps the Middle class and lower class clubs happy. Fehr hasn't realized this yet. Thoes clubs in the NHl can wait as long as possible for a deal since they bleed money in the regular season.

Of course as we can see Fehr has not been willing to work a deal for the lower clubs, this would not give the players the biggest return. They hold Bettmans cards more then the NYR MTL or VAN do.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:35 pm

no name wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Gaucho wrote:The owners locked the players out, not the other way around, so I don't think it's that ridiculous to expect the owners to pay for the lockout. At the same time, I don't think that stance is very helpful.


Both sides locked each other out. You can't expect a team to open the arena gates if it knows they're only to lose more money. Maybe Fehr should have started negotiating a year ago, but he wasn't ready. And they can't expect owners to pay if there is no money coming in from the games.


This is typical Fehr negotiations. He must be really good at it when you look at how rich baseball players have gotten. In every other league you negotiate with the Upper Class clubs to keep them rich and happy and winning. In Hockey there are only 5 rich clubs. SO you have to work a CBA that keeps the Middle class and lower class clubs happy. Fehr hasn't realized this yet. Thoes clubs in the NHl can wait as long as possible for a deal since they bleed money in the regular season.

Of course as we can see Fehr has not been willing to work a deal for the lower clubs, this would not give the players the biggest return. They hold Bettmans cards more then the NYR MTL or VAN do.


The NHLPA is the one pushing for a rise in revenue sharing to help those lower clubs. The NHL has been countering with lower numbers (still higher than before) because there is opposition from the wealthier clubs who would stand to pay out more.

So it's not all about negotiating with particular groups.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:26 pm

It only takes a small group of owners to pass or stop things. So i would just think if you made a agreement that worked for the Mid and low class teams you could get a deal passed.

But this doesn't appeal to Fehr since they won't get the money from thoes teams.

FLA and Pho. don't just want a CBA where they get revenue sharing, they want a CBA that allows them to survive and get revenue sharing. The extra drop of 57% tp 50% ups the money they make or should i say minimizes the ammount they lose. All the mid class teams will now make a small profit.

I also love how Fehr says the players are allowed to sit in on the meetings, i would love to hear what is going on in these players mind during the meetings, you got Lawyers and Business grads and accountants throwing around numbers and ideas. It would almost be comical to see a hockey player saying. "yeah that makes sence." A hockey player in the room would be equal to a fly on the wall. Waiting for no one to see them land a bagel.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:48 pm

They probably take out their phones and play Angry Birds.
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Re: Lockout

Postby shmenguin on Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:59 pm

no name wrote:i would love to hear what is going on in these players mind during the meetings


Image
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Re: Lockout

Postby darkstar57 on Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:15 pm

no name wrote:I also love how Fehr says the players are allowed to sit in on the meetings, i would love to hear what is going on in these players mind during the meetings, you got Lawyers and Business grads and accountants throwing around numbers and ideas. It would almost be comical to see a hockey player saying. "yeah that makes sence." A hockey player in the room would be equal to a fly on the wall. Waiting for no one to see them land a bagel.


Umm Craig Adams is a hockey player went to Havard, i think he hold his own in the meeting and while Crosby didn't go to college you can tell with the way how he acts and conducts business he is not stupid.

that being said, I have a college degree, work in finance and fairly adept with numbers, i'd probably have no clue what these guys are talking about, so not sure what being a hockey player has to do with understanding what they are talking about
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:09 pm

Well i am sure you could follow more of the meeting that 95% of the hockey players. I work around lawyers alot and its really mind blowing listening to them and the language they use. My sister is an account and when she goes off on money and finances i am in awe. But my point is a player hears a percentage thrown out and all they know is 55% is higher than 54% where the accountant hear 700 million dollars on that one percent. and how it has an effect 3 years down the road. Also the tax on that and how it fits in escrow....

Craig Adams ok might have a small clue but unless its what you do for living you are just there, not really able to contribute.
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