LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

[Gaucho]

But hey, it's all good as long as we can sell tanks and arms and planes to all parties involved.

[bhaw]

I'm pretty sure Hamas has 0 of our tanks right now. I'm actually pretty sure they have somewhere around 0 tanks in general. They are trying to get blown up so all the other nations around Israel join in and go after them.

[Gaucho]

When I (being German and all) say "we" I don't mean the USA but the Western world in general, and I wasn't just talking about the Hamas either. Germany just sold a few hundred tanks to Saudi-Arabia, but we made sure to include a small leaflet about human rights in the deal.

[Sarcastic]

Stupid Hamas keep shooting hundreds of rockets at Israel. What is that going to accomplish. Those are so rudimentary, they can't hit anything. Only 3 Israeli casualties so far versus 41 Palestinians (including 20 civilians, 8 children, and 1 pregnant woman). Shooting rockets isn't the answer. Now, Israel is guilty of overracting, as always, though I do understand they can't keep tolerating those rockets. On the other hand, they're more to blame for stalling the peace talks than the other side since they refuse to cave in on anything. It's time to end this BS once and for all, but Bush had 8 years to push it and didn't do crap and now Obama already had 4 years, though I understand if he said a thing against Israel he would have been decimated in the media and by the Republicans, so he was in a very tight spot there.

Anyway. Now Egypt is saying they'll stick up for the Palestinians. I don't know what that means, but this is worrying me that it escalates into a bigger war.

I have an acquantaince who's actually a rabbi and very pro-Israel and who's two sons (yes, the guy is significantly older than me) moved to Israel recently. I called him and asked for his take. He said people in Israel are terrified, and also something interesting. That Netanyahu and his party are hoping this 'war' will pull people together and stengthen their position in upcoming elections. Kind of a selfish reason to hit this hard, but something to keep in mind.

[Gaucho]

The truth is that most people in the region, Israelis and Arabs alike, just want to live in peace and are perfectly willing and able to do it side by side. Unfortunately, it's the Hamas and Netanyahu and Ahmadinejad and other arseholes set the tone.

[columbia]

Massing troops and tanks near Gaza, Israel says wants no war
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/ ... XD20121116

[Gaucho]

War seems inevitable.

[ExPatriatePen]

When I (being German and all) say "we" I don't mean the USA but the Western world in general, and I wasn't just talking about the Hamas either. Germany just sold a few hundred tanks to Saudi-Arabia, but we made sure to include a small leaflet about human rights in the deal.

Don't ignore the AK-47's and Russian rocket launchers in your condemnation.

If you think the current world is bad, I just read an article on the plane yesterday that China is viewing Africa as the next major market for arms sales.

[Gaucho]

Yes, I guess "Western world" is a little inaccurate.

[ExPatriatePen]

Watching the weekly political talk shows this morning, I find it extremely amusing that the left is excusing Ambassador Rice's "talking point propoganda" as just "politics as usual" and they point to Colin Powell's comments to the UN in a way of saying "we're bad, but they're worse".

The American political system is completely broken... When are voters going to demand better for themselves and their families?

[Geezer]

http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/willi ... nment-2013
To me the fact that taxes may rise next year isn't the key point. They will rise eventually the way things are going.
The key point is most middle class people are giving federal,state and local governments 1/2 their paycheck.
The Fed,SS and average state income taxes total 38.6 %. My city wage tax takes mine to a little over 40%. I'm sure Pa.'s 6% sales tax, my property taxes and what we pay in gas tax and taxes on all utilities takes my tax total (and that of similar people) to the 50% range. While this isn't technically socialism to me when the government is getting in the range of what you work things are drastically out control.

[DelPen]

If you are giving the government half your money you are doing something wrong.

[tifosi77]

Watching the weekly political talk shows this morning, I find it extremely amusing that the left is excusing Ambassador Rice's "talking point propoganda" as just "politics as usual" and they point to Colin Powell's comments to the UN in a way of saying "we're bad, but they're worse".

The American political system is completely broken... When are voters going to demand better for themselves and their families?

I don't look at it as a case of "we're bad, but they're worse" so much as an opportunity to ask where Republican outrage was in 2002/3 when it became quite clear that Saddam Hussein wasn't going to leave a smoking gun mushroom cloud over Washington. Why was there no call for Watergate-style hearings then?

Four Americans died in Benghazi, none of them the result of political deception/lies/subterfuge/obfuscation/etc. What's the death toll in Iraq up to?

Yes....... I'm saying it's quite a different kettle of fish.

[ExPatriatePen]

Watching the weekly political talk shows this morning, I find it extremely amusing that the left is excusing Ambassador Rice's "talking point propoganda" as just "politics as usual" and they point to Colin Powell's comments to the UN in a way of saying "we're bad, but they're worse".

The American political system is completely broken... When are voters going to demand better for themselves and their families?

I don't look at it as a case of "we're bad, but they're worse" so much as an opportunity to ask where Republican outrage was in 2002/3 when it became quite clear that Saddam Hussein wasn't going to leave a smoking gun mushroom cloud over Washington. Why was there no call for Watergate-style hearings then?

Four Americans died in Benghazi, none of them the result of political deception/lies/subterfuge/obfuscation/etc. What's the death toll in Iraq up to?

Yes....... I'm saying it's quite a different kettle of fish.

You missed the point. No one is comparing the Iraq war with the the Terrorist attack on the US embassey.

The question is about how we accept that our politicians are lying to us... Regardless of the issue, we expect the, to lie, we don't hold them accountable to the truth.

Who in their right mind would compare benghazi to the Iraq war? That's completely disingenuous and an obvious attempt to change the discussion.

Sure other politicians lied to the American public, GWB, Clinton, Reagan, hell, even Stevenson lied about the Cuban missle crisis.

But this was to be the administration of "Change".

If not now, when?

[columbia]

It looks like Allen West's days in the House are numbered.....

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/11 ... html?hp=r1

[Gaucho]

Sure other politicians lied to the American public, GWB, Clinton, Reagan, hell, even Stevenson lied about the Cuban missle crisis.

But this was to be the administration of "Change".

You're not going to tell me that Obama's lies are worse than those of the others because his campaign slogan happened to be "Change", are you? You know as well as I do that politicians make promises they never intend to keep all the time.

[ExPatriatePen]

Sure other politicians lied to the American public, GWB, Clinton, Reagan, hell, even Stevenson lied about the Cuban missle crisis.

But this was to be the administration of "Change".

You're not going to tell me that Obama's lies are worse than those of the others because his campaign slogan happened to be "Change", are you? You know as well as I do that politicians make promises they never intend to keep all the time.

Who said they were 'worse'? What is this? A 'race to the bottom'?

I'll say it again

The question is about how we accept that our politicians are lying to us... Regardless of the issue, we expect the, to lie, we don't hold them accountable to the truth.

Your comment is a complete validation of my point, you accept that politicians are liars. 1992 was the last time that voters in the US acted when a politician lied to them (at the presidential level), and it wasn't really much of a lie (IMHO). They threw out 41 because he said "read my lips" and then compromised with the opposition. We get the government we deserve.

I guess that 'change' didn't include being honest with the citizens you represent, sorry, my bad.

People need to wake up and hold ALL politicians accountable, not just the ones from the 'opposition'.

[Gaucho]

People need to wake up and hold ALL politicians accountable, not just the ones from the 'opposition'.

That was sort of my point. Maybe I misunderstood, but the quote I embedded seemed to imply that Obama's dishonesty was somehow more detestable than that of others.

[Sarcastic]

This is in no way to dismiss the seriousness of rockets coming at Israel. If they have to use some level of force to deter that then they should. One of the rockets landed on a school yesterday, for instance, but thankfully the kids were already evacuated. The question I have is why return fire so hard, why populated areas, and why the constant assassinations over the years, in the middle of street and without care that 10 bystands may be standing by and end up getting blown up because some a-hole with the trigger couldn't wait for a safer location.

So far, only a few causualties on the Israeli side that I know of, but this is the other side:

"In all, at least 95 Palestinians have been killed in the five-day onslaught and more than 740 have been wounded, Palestinian medical sources told NBC News. At least 23 of the Gaza fatalities have been children."

Anyway. I came across this article as I was getting caught up on everything. It's a must-read. It talks about the bombing campaign and the political reasons with the upcoming elections for Netanyahu that may be affecting his decisions. It came as a surprise to me that this, apparently, is not the first time an Israel politician has used the tactic.

"The current operation, Pillar of Defense, belongs in the same category. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is interested in neutralizing every possible rival, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak is fighting for enough votes to return to the Knesset. A war against Hamas will wipe out the electoral aspirations of the ditherer, Ehud Olmert, whose disciples expected him to announce his candidacy this evening and it will kick off the agenda the "social and economic issue" that serves the Labor Party headed by MK Shelly Yacimovich.

When the cannons roar, we see only Netanyahu and Barak on the screen, and all the other politicians have to applaud them."

I recommend you read the entire article. If you ever have a problem loading a story at Haaretz, since it now requires a subscription, copy/paste the full name of the article on google and search it. First link. It somehow by-passes Haaretz' checking system and loads it in full. I came up with it myself, thank you.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886

[Sarcastic]

90% of Israelis support the war, meaning, protecting itself from the missles. Only 30% support a ground offensive.

[MRandall25]

Civilians in Palestine are being killed because Hamas is putting their rocket launchers in the middle of heavily populated areas.

[shafnutz05]

Civilians in Palestine are being killed because Hamas is putting their rocket launchers in the middle of heavily populated areas.

Pretty much.

[ExPatriatePen]

Civilians in Palestine are being killed because Hamas is putting their rocket launchers in the middle of heavily populated areas.

Pretty much.

I'm not a huge supporter of Israel. However, the tactics used by Hamas are repugnant.

There are rooms in school houses and hospitals that actually have sliding ceilings. Those rooms are used to hide artillery and rocket lanchers. The roofs are slid back, the weapons fired, and the roofs are put back in place.

Using civilians, particulary the sick, infirm and children as human shields, is the despicable act of cowards.

[Sarcastic]

Civilians in Palestine are being killed because Hamas is putting their rocket launchers in the middle of heavily populated areas.

That may be true to some extent in this case, however, would the US military bomb civilian areas to destroy military targets? No, especially since even with all those rockets, damage to Israel remains minimal. They'd have to come up with another solution. Plus, as I said, the killings have been constant over the years. Not that you hear about it much from our media. One of the articles I read this weekend - sorry, I can't seem to find the link anymore - said that in the last 10 years, over 6,000 Palestinians have been killed one way or another.

edit: one too many zeros, sorry.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

[MRandall25]

The US military certainly has bombed civilian areas to get military structures. No clue what you're trying to say there. Remember WWII? Hell, they even do it now with unmanned drone strikes.