LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

[columbia]

She's no Colin Powell, that's for sure.

[columbia]

Some sins are worse than others.

What's the death toll in Iraq now?

[Shyster]

pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

[Sarcastic]

Lots of swear words.

[columbia]

[ExPatriatePen]

Justification of hostilities is abhorrent.

[redwill]

My squadron called in a JDAM on a drone that crashed with about 70 civilians poking around to see what the hell it was. and that was an inanimate object. we most certainly accept civilians as collateral damage in our operations.

Wow. Really puts internet talking heads in perspective.

[MRandall25]

pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"

[Digitalgypsy66]

President Obama has been to a number of foreign countries as President, but he has never visited South Carolina while in office. There are several other states that he hasn't visited as president yet.

[redwill]

If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.

It worked so well in Vietnam.

The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.

Like, uh, Vietnam?

[ExPatriatePen]

President Obama has been to a number of foreign countries as President, but he has never visited South Carolina while in office. There are several other states that he hasn't visited as president yet.

Lots of international "hotspots" in Columbia, SC eh?

[ExPatriatePen]

If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.

It worked so well in Vietnam.

The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.

Like, uh, Vietnam?

Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.

[redwill]

Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.

OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?

[ExPatriatePen]

Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.

OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?

Actually, air superiority is a huge advantage in both conflicts you mention.

Ask Kaiser, or any other Vet, how they'd have felt if the enemy held the advantage in the skies.

The sweetest sound to any grunt are the afterburners of an A-10 Warthog.

[Shyster]

pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"

Yeah, but in all fairness by the time an Asian woman would have hit the wall, a guy like me would not only have hit a wall, I’d have fallen off a gigantic cliff and then had a boulder fall on top of me like Wile E. Coyote.

[redwill]

Actually, air superiority is a huge advantage in both conflicts you mention.

Ask Kaiser, or any other Vet, how they'd have felt if the enemy held the advantage in the skies.

The sweetest sound to any grunt are the afterburners of an A-10 Warthog.

No fault of the grunts, but ... the end result is abject failure. Do you disagree?

[redwill]

Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

I could be wrong.

[MRandall25]

pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"

Yeah, but in all fairness by the time an Asian woman would have hit the wall, a guy like me would not only have hit a wall, I’d have fallen off a gigantic cliff and then had a boulder fall on top of me like Wile E. Coyote.

[ExPatriatePen]

Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

I could be wrong.

Dude, the afterburners of an A-10 are impressive as hell.

The reason I mentioned that is that the A-10 is an interesting beast, you normally don't hear it until it's left the scene.

[tifosi77]

If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.

It worked so well in Vietnam.

The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.

Like, uh, Vietnam?

Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)

Spoiler:

Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.

OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?

Afghanistan is also a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. But I'm tired typing, so just take my word for it.

Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

That's right, no 'burners on the Hog.

[tifosi77]

From the wife's FB wall today.... haven't fact-checked this, but for some reason I don't have a hard time believing any of it.

Re Hostess:

Management was trying to cut baker's pay by 8% and benefits by 32%..... while the CEO gave himself a 300% raise. Nine Hostess execs got bonuses of between 60% and 100% while filing the company's second bankruptcy, which called for the cessation of payments into the employee pension fund - to which the company is $160 million in arrears.

I understand the drain that pensions can place on an organization, by can we not agree that these sort of things just look unseemly?

[tifosi77]

Speaking of technology in air warfare......

Ban 'killer robots,' rights group urges

The report "Losing Humanity"—issued by Human Rights Watch and Harvard Law School's International Human Rights Clinic—raised the alarm over the ethics of the looming technology.

Calling them "killer robots," the report urged "an international treaty that would absolutely prohibit the development, production, and use of fully autonomous weapons."

I'd sign it in a heartbeat.

[columbia]

Germany charges ahead as solar power booms
http://www.dw.de/germany-charges-ahead- ... a-16383531

Comments from Gaucho in sunny Germany?

[redwill]

Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)

Spoiler:

Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.

How is this "an excellent example of exactly what [you're] talking about"?

I'm saying air power (FORCE MULTIPLIER) in Vietnam was indecisive at best, but in reality was worthless, IMO. It could not have won us the war. Sure, we could've taken on the Soviets and the Chinese at the same time as the Vietnamese ... that would've been easy-peasy, right? That's what you're suggesting with your "political considerations" comment, yes? Or we could've just nuked 'em. We would have won, then, right?

But, in the end, you're focusing on the cities of North Vietnam. That's not what lost us the war. Do you disagree? What about Khe Sanh? How many tons of bombs were dropped there? What was the result? We "won" the battle, but still lost the war by a long, long, shot.

Bomb the jungles (or the mountains of Afghanistan) all you want, you're not going to break the will of a determined foe.

What did we NOT learn from the French after Dien Bien Phu? Well, you've laid it out better than I could ever do.

[tifosi77]

Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)

Spoiler:

Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.

How is this "an excellent example of exactly what [you're] talking about"?

I'm saying air power (FORCE MULTIPLIER) in Vietnam was indecisive at best, but in reality was worthless, IMO. It could not have won us the war. Sure, we could've taken on the Soviets and the Chinese at the same time as the Vietnamese ... that would've been easy-peasy, right? That's what you're suggesting with your "political considerations" comment, yes? Or we could've just nuked 'em. We would have won, then, right?

But, in the end, you're focusing on the cities of North Vietnam. That's not what lost us the war. Do you disagree? What about Khe Sanh? How many tons of bombs were dropped there? What was the result? We "won" the battle, but still lost the war by a long, long, shot.

Bomb the jungles (or the mountains of Afghanistan) all you want, you're not going to break the will of a determined foe.

What did we NOT learn from the French after Dien Bien Phu? Well, you've laid it out better than I could ever do.

You're not understanding the meaning of the term 'force multiplier'. It's simply a way of expressing that missions that once required many assets can now be carried out by a smaller force to the same level of effectiveness. Air power, in and of itself, is not a force multiplier, nor are force multipliers a guarantees of victorious outcomes on the battlefield.

And yes, I'm saying that a military victory in Vietnam was entirely possible (likely, even) but for the considerations of not angering the Soviets and Chinese. (Same as in Korea) And said victory would have achieved long before anyone got "nuked". But because of the political constraints of not wanting to start World War III over a third-rate rice paddy, the reality that the U.S. faced in Vietnam made any real chance of a military victory next to impossible.