LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:28 pm

She's no Colin Powell, that's for sure.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,880
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:31 pm

Some sins are worse than others.

What's the death toll in Iraq now?
Last edited by columbia on Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,880
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:13 pm

Gaucho wrote:pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,754
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:22 pm

Lots of swear words. :thumb:

Sarcastic
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,336
Joined: Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:49 pm

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:25 pm

:pop:
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,880
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:35 pm

Justification of hostilities is abhorrent.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:39 pm

Kaizer wrote:My squadron called in a JDAM on a drone that crashed with about 70 civilians poking around to see what the hell it was. and that was an inanimate object. we most certainly accept civilians as collateral damage in our operations.


Wow. Really puts internet talking heads in perspective.
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm

Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.


Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:59 pm

President Obama has been to a number of foreign countries as President, but he has never visited South Carolina while in office. There are several other states that he hasn't visited as president yet. :pop:
Digitalgypsy66
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,639
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 11:21 pm
Location: Roger Roger.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:07 pm

tifosi77 wrote:If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.


It worked so well in Vietnam.

tifosi77 wrote:The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.


Like, uh, Vietnam?
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:13 pm

Digitalgypsy66 wrote:President Obama has been to a number of foreign countries as President, but he has never visited South Carolina while in office. There are several other states that he hasn't visited as president yet. :pop:

Lots of international "hotspots" in Columbia, SC eh?
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:15 pm

redwill wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.


It worked so well in Vietnam.

tifosi77 wrote:The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.


Like, uh, Vietnam?


Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:27 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.


OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:31 pm

redwill wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Corner case. Not exactly the shining example.


OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?

Actually, air superiority is a huge advantage in both conflicts you mention.

Ask Kaiser, or any other Vet, how they'd have felt if the enemy held the advantage in the skies.

The sweetest sound to any grunt are the afterburners of an A-10 Warthog.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:34 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"

Yeah, but in all fairness by the time an Asian woman would have hit the wall, a guy like me would not only have hit a wall, I’d have fallen off a gigantic cliff and then had a boulder fall on top of me like Wile E. Coyote.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,754
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:35 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Actually, air superiority is a huge advantage in both conflicts you mention.

Ask Kaiser, or any other Vet, how they'd have felt if the enemy held the advantage in the skies.

The sweetest sound to any grunt are the afterburners of an A-10 Warthog.


No fault of the grunts, but ... the end result is abject failure. Do you disagree?
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:42 pm

Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

I could be wrong.
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:55 pm

Shyster wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:pics of Obama with Aung San Suu Kyi

As an aside, is it me or do Asian women really hold up well? Suu Kyi looks really good for 67.

Asian women do hold up well until they hit "the wall"

Yeah, but in all fairness by the time an Asian woman would have hit the wall, a guy like me would not only have hit a wall, I’d have fallen off a gigantic cliff and then had a boulder fall on top of me like Wile E. Coyote.


:lol:
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 19,684
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:57 pm

redwill wrote:Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

I could be wrong.

Dude, the afterburners of an A-10 are impressive as hell.

The reason I mentioned that is that the A-10 is an interesting beast, you normally don't hear it until it's left the scene.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,691
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:08 pm

redwill wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:If you look at the history of air power, you see technology playing the role of force multiplier.


It worked so well in Vietnam.

tifosi77 wrote:The problem is the bad guys are in urban environments.


Like, uh, Vietnam?

Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)
Spoiler:
Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.


redwill wrote:OK. How about Afghanistan 2002-2012?

Afghanistan is also a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. But I'm tired typing, so just take my word for it. :wink:

redwill wrote:Oh, and it's just meh, but I do not believe A-10s have afterburners.

That's right, no 'burners on the Hog.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:22 pm

From the wife's FB wall today.... haven't fact-checked this, but for some reason I don't have a hard time believing any of it.

Re Hostess:

Management was trying to cut baker's pay by 8% and benefits by 32%..... while the CEO gave himself a 300% raise. Nine Hostess execs got bonuses of between 60% and 100% while filing the company's second bankruptcy, which called for the cessation of payments into the employee pension fund - to which the company is $160 million in arrears.

I understand the drain that pensions can place on an organization, by can we not agree that these sort of things just look unseemly?
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:35 pm

Speaking of technology in air warfare......

Ban 'killer robots,' rights group urges
The report "Losing Humanity"—issued by Human Rights Watch and Harvard Law School's International Human Rights Clinic—raised the alarm over the ethics of the looming technology.

Calling them "killer robots," the report urged "an international treaty that would absolutely prohibit the development, production, and use of fully autonomous weapons."

I'd sign it in a heartbeat.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:52 pm

Germany charges ahead as solar power booms
http://www.dw.de/germany-charges-ahead- ... a-16383531

Comments from Gaucho in sunny Germany?
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,880
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am
Location: دعنا نذهب طيور البطريق

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby redwill on Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:56 pm

tifosi77 wrote:Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)
Spoiler:
Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.


How is this "an excellent example of exactly what [you're] talking about"?

I'm saying air power (FORCE MULTIPLIER) in Vietnam was indecisive at best, but in reality was worthless, IMO. It could not have won us the war. Sure, we could've taken on the Soviets and the Chinese at the same time as the Vietnamese ... that would've been easy-peasy, right? That's what you're suggesting with your "political considerations" comment, yes? Or we could've just nuked 'em. We would have won, then, right?

But, in the end, you're focusing on the cities of North Vietnam. That's not what lost us the war. Do you disagree? What about Khe Sanh? How many tons of bombs were dropped there? What was the result? We "won" the battle, but still lost the war by a long, long, shot.

Bomb the jungles (or the mountains of Afghanistan) all you want, you're not going to break the will of a determined foe.

What did we NOT learn from the French after Dien Bien Phu? Well, you've laid it out better than I could ever do.
redwill
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 7,342
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 4:04 pm
Location: Wichita, KS

Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:16 pm

redwill wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:Vietnam is an excellent example of exactly what I'm talking about.
(spoiler-tagged so as not to clutter the thread)
Spoiler:
Hanoi and Haiphong had the most elaborate air defense network that the world had ever seen by the end of the 1960s. But there were some very restrictive rules of engagement that limited what U.S. aviators could attack. For example, any ships in the Haiphong harbor that had Chinese or Soviet flags were strictly verboten, as were political buildings in Hanoi. But - being dense urban environments - it was not uncommon to find legitimate targets in close proximity to forbidden areas. The NV were fond of stockpiling surface-to-air missiles, for example, exposed to the full light of day on the rooftops of schools and hospitals, knowing that U.S. pilots were forbidden from attacking. I remember an interview with John McCain where he talked about flying over the harbor in Haiphong and seeing these huge cargo ships offloading the SAMs and radars and road graders and all sorts of materiel...... but because the ship was flagged Soviet, they couldn't bomb it. Had to wait until the stuff was deployed in the field.

Precision-guided munitions were only just beginning to find their way into the U.S. arsenal in Vietnam, and didn't really play that much of a role until Operations: Linebacker and Linebacker II in 1972. But technology for delivering 'dumb' bombs had advanced to such a degree that attacks on many these targets were made possible in a way that, given the same political restrictions, never would have been conceivable even 10 years earlier.

On May 10, 1972 one of the most famous air attacks of the whole war took place. The USS Constellation and its embarked air wing (CVG-9) were tasked with hitting the Hai Duong rail yards, just outside of Hanoi, as their contribution to the start of Linebacker. The carrier sent up a strike package that included F-4 Phantoms, A-7 Corsairs, A-6 Intruders plus tanker and electronic warfare support. In total, around two dozen aircraft took part in the mission, launched from a single aircraft carrier, and only about twenty of which actually went 'downtown'. That's 24 aircraft and 30-35 aircrew exposed to enemy fire to take out a target that with WWII technology would have required four times as many aircraft and more than 30 times as many people sent into harm's way.

That strike is actually studied quite a bit in air warfare. The air war had pretty much come to a halt in the North for several years, when Nixon decided to get serious about conducting the campaign again. In what amounted to a years-long stand-down, the Navy took the opportunity to figure out what it had been doing wrong in the early days of the war and started the TOPGUN fighter weapons school in 1969 to address those shortcomings. The Air Force didn't do anything but say their technology wasn't techy enough. When the fighting began again in '72, the Navy was ready; on that mission to Hai Duong, 8 NV MiGs were downed by Naval Aviators -- three by one man - Randy Cunningham (who went on to be convicted of accepting bribes while serving in the U.S. House of Representatives) - who already had two kills to his name and thus became the first ace of the war and the first ace in history to score all his kills with air-to-air missiles.

But to the more proximate point you were making; it wasn't technology that lost the war in Vietnam. But for the political considerations, the fighting would have been over in less than a year.


How is this "an excellent example of exactly what [you're] talking about"?

I'm saying air power (FORCE MULTIPLIER) in Vietnam was indecisive at best, but in reality was worthless, IMO. It could not have won us the war. Sure, we could've taken on the Soviets and the Chinese at the same time as the Vietnamese ... that would've been easy-peasy, right? That's what you're suggesting with your "political considerations" comment, yes? Or we could've just nuked 'em. We would have won, then, right?

But, in the end, you're focusing on the cities of North Vietnam. That's not what lost us the war. Do you disagree? What about Khe Sanh? How many tons of bombs were dropped there? What was the result? We "won" the battle, but still lost the war by a long, long, shot.

Bomb the jungles (or the mountains of Afghanistan) all you want, you're not going to break the will of a determined foe.

What did we NOT learn from the French after Dien Bien Phu? Well, you've laid it out better than I could ever do.

You're not understanding the meaning of the term 'force multiplier'. It's simply a way of expressing that missions that once required many assets can now be carried out by a smaller force to the same level of effectiveness. Air power, in and of itself, is not a force multiplier, nor are force multipliers a guarantees of victorious outcomes on the battlefield.

And yes, I'm saying that a military victory in Vietnam was entirely possible (likely, even) but for the considerations of not angering the Soviets and Chinese. (Same as in Korea) And said victory would have achieved long before anyone got "nuked". But because of the political constraints of not wanting to start World War III over a third-rate rice paddy, the reality that the U.S. faced in Vietnam made any real chance of a military victory next to impossible.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,084
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


e-mail