LGP Political Discussion Thread

[Sarcastic]

Why is that all significant? Because it could bring a serious conflict between Israel and the West, especially with Palestine getting recognized yesterday. This is time to finally make peace stick, come up with a compromise - and Israel will have to compromise - and finish all the nonsense. New hard-liners in Netanyahu's party will make it extra difficult.

[GaryRissling]

I would very much like to see a cross-reference between contributors to Dems, Republicans, and Likud. I'd bet a lot of key contributions originate from the same pockets.

[King Sid the Great 87]

Social security short fall be damned. Obama proposes to extend payroll tax holiday!

[Sarcastic]

I would very much like to see a cross-reference between contributors to Dems, Republicans, and Likud. I'd bet a lot of key contributions originate from the same pockets.

You'll find this article interesting.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections/more-than-half-of-contributions-to-israeli-politicians-come-from-foreign-donors.premium-1.469542

More than half of the contributions to politicians in the past two years - 53 percent of the NIS 13 million - came from people who live overseas, cannot vote in Israel and are not directly impacted by the elected officials' decisions.

[GaryRissling]

I would very much like to see a cross-reference between contributors to Dems, Republicans, and Likud. I'd bet a lot of key contributions originate from the same pockets.

You'll find this article interesting.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/elections/more-than-half-of-contributions-to-israeli-politicians-come-from-foreign-donors.premium-1.469542

More than half of the contributions to politicians in the past two years - 53 percent of the NIS 13 million - came from people who live overseas, cannot vote in Israel and are not directly impacted by the elected officials' decisions.

It's behind a paywall. Interesting lede, though.

[Sarcastic]

Do what I said. Go to google. Put in 'haaretz More than half of contributions to Israeli politicians come from foreign donors'. First google link will open it up.

[Sarcastic]

Same with the other articles and all articles off Haaretz.

[ExPatriatePen]

Social security short fall be damned. Obama proposes to extend payroll tax holiday!

Kind of the reverse of Whimpy's "I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger today..."

I can't believe the administration is singing that old song again... give us revenues now, and we <cough>promise<cough> to make spending cuts sometime in the future.

[Sarcastic]

Here we go.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/in-response-to-un-vote-israel-to-build-3-000-new-homes-in-settlements.premium-1.481695

In response to UN vote, Israel to build 3,000 new homes in settlements

Netanyahu orders thousands of new housing units in East Jerusalem and the West Bank; controversial plans for new construction in the E1 area near Jerusalem will be advanced, contrary to commitments made to the Obama administration.

[Sarcastic]

According to the source, Israel also plans to advance long-frozen plans for the E1 area, which covers an area that links the city of Jerusalem with the settlement of Ma'aleh Adumim.

If built, the controversial plan would prevent territorial contiguity between the northern and southern West Bank, making it difficult for a future Palestinian state to function.

In the beginning of his term, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave the Obama administration a commitment that Israel would not build in the area. Both of his predecessors, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, also promised the U.S. administration that Israel would not build in E1.

[ExPatriatePen]

According to the source, Israel also plans to advance long-frozen plans for the E1 area, which covers an area that links the city of Jerusalem with the settlement of Ma'aleh Adumim.

If built, the controversial plan would prevent territorial contiguity between the northern and southern West Bank, making it difficult for a future Palestinian state to function.

In the beginning of his term, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu gave the Obama administration a commitment that Israel would not build in the area. Both of his predecessors, Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert, also promised the U.S. administration that Israel would not build in E1.

$$$$$$ <=- The leverage

[Shyster]

5 million Palestinian refugees were created by the creation of Israel. People who were physically displaced from their homes. That figure is from our State Department.

Yes and no. A lot of the non-Jews who were living in the new Israel at the time of the declaration of independence in 1948 left their homes voluntarily and fled into the West Bank in order to “get out of the way” of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. A lot of them expected that the Jews would be swiftly annihilated by the combined Arab forces, at which point they could not only return to their homes, they could also take over the now-dead Jews’ property. But to their surprise, the Jews won the war.

Also don’t forget that after the 1948 war Jordan annexed the West Bank (which was supposed to be part of the “Palestinian” state) and ruled it until 1967. Many of those people who now claim to be “refugees” were in fact Jordanians for almost 20 years. Jordan actually stripped those people of Jordanian citizenship when it eventually relinquished its claims to the area years later.

In addition, often overlooked is the fact that almost a million Jews were essentially driven from their homes in Arab countries in the decades following the 1948 war. Arabs ticked off about losing to Israel swiftly turned on their local Jewish populations (many of which had been there for centuries), and a lot of Jews were forced to flee with little more than the clothes on their backs. There were refugees going both directions.

[Gaucho]

In any case, snafu.

[Sarcastic]

It's a very complicated issue for sure, Shyster. I'm not going to fight over specific numbers because they're really meaningless in the broad sense. The 5 million is the number our gov. gives so who am I to argue. But the whole thing is a mess. Going back to current events, Israel is risking isolating itself from everybody else and that is not a good scenario. We all want Israel to succeed in creating a nice country for themselves that Arab states can secure normal relations with, which in turn would help the US. I sometimes read these things and shake my head because it's all so selfish - not taking sides now, just in general - and silly.

[tifosi77]

The chances of Catalunya - which is mostly autonomous anyway - seceding from Spain are slim to none, actually. It's mostly just posturing and frustration about allegedly having to bail out the other, less properous regions (same happens in Belgium, the UK, Germany...). What they fail to mention, of course, is that Catalunya is also the region with by far the highest per capita debts in all of Spain. So they want to apply a little pressure on the Spanish government.

Yes, they are proud Catalunyans, but most of them are proud Spaniards, too.

I agree that actual secession is highly unlikely, but while I haven't been to the region since the early 2000's, even at that time, you'd be hard pressed to find much love for Madrid, or Spanish flags for that matter. Franco's regime was not so long ago. Heck it only ended around the last time the Flyers won the cup.

Just from what I've learned about Spain in my culinary adventures, I'd be more inclined to think GaryR's interpretation is more likely to be accurate. Shoot, they still don't speak Castilian Spanish in Barcelona. (Officially they do, but....)

[Gaucho]

They don't speak in Castilian in Galicia, Basque and Valencia either.

[ExPatriatePen]

They don't speak in Castilian in Galicia, Basque and Valencia either.

How does majorca (mallorca) figure into that equation?

[tifosi77]

I didn't know Valencia was on the list, but I did know Euskadi spoke Basque. It's a very fragmented country, that's for sure. They say that the 2010 World Cup victory made many Spaniards feel like real Spaniards for the first time..... and then they remembered that 8 of the starting 11 were Catalan, and everything went back to normal.

[Sarcastic]

White House slams Israel's decision to expand settlements
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/30/15573067-white-house-slams-israels-decision-to-expand-settlements

[Gaucho]

I didn't know Valencia was on the list, but I did know Euskadi spoke Basque. It's a very fragmented country, that's for sure. They say that the 2010 World Cup victory made many Spaniards feel like real Spaniards for the first time..... and then they remembered that 8 of the starting 11 were Catalan, and everything went back to normal.

Oh btw, they do not "officially" speak Castilian in Barcelona. As I said, they are pretty autonomous.

[GaryRissling]

As an aside, Spain is an amazing and diverse country. Nothing like seeing a Christian cathedral converted from a Muslim mosque converted from a roman temple as in cordoba to put things in perspective.

[Gaucho]

They don't speak in Castilian in Galicia, Basque and Valencia either.

How does majorca (mallorca) figure into that equation?

As far as I know, Majorquin (?) is a Catalan dialect. But don't quote me on it.

[Shyster]

It doesn't have to be. In fact, it would be much better IMO if we supported a non-sectarian democracy in Israel that recognized the equality of man; but that is never discussed. Segregation is the preferred solution. I don't for the life of me understand unconditionally supporting any racially/sectarian-based geo-political ideology is in keeping with what we believe as a nation.

It's apartheid.....

Perhaps it is, but what options do the Jews have? Their first and foremost interest is not being killed. Saying they need to move to a democracy provides no assurances, as a democracy is perfectly capable of monstrous atrocities. A favorite quote of mine from British author Theodore Dalrymple comes to mind: “The first thing to remember is that freedom and democracy are not necessarily the same thing at all. A people may easily vote into power a government that wishes to massacre part of the population.” Or as author Terry Goodkind said, “Gang rape, after all, is democracy in action.” A democracy in greater Israel that incorporates everyone with equal voting rights would leave the Jewish residents in the minority. Does anyone think the Arab majority would not, at that point, pull up its sleeves, sharpen its knives, and cheerfully announce “It’s payback time!”?

A good reference for what might happen is Into the Cannibal’s Pot: Lessons for America from Post-Apartheid South Africa by Ilana Mercer, which I’ve reviewed over in the “current book” thread. Basically, when the whites in SA agreed to end apartheid and give blacks full voting rights, it became “payback time.” And because all of the post-apartheid political parties aligned themselves on racial lines—certain parties being “black” parties and certain parties being “while” parties—the control of the government is not based on whose parties or leaders have the best ideas or propose the best policies. Instead, control is based on strict demographics: there are more blacks than whites, so the blacks rule. And because the dominant political parties are racially biased, their primary interest is benefiting their race at the expense of everyone else. Blacks not only rule, but they rule at the expense of the white minority.

One of the main lessons, I think, from Ms. Mercer’s book is that a democracy (or even republic) can only work if government is based on ideas. There must be movement between political parties and political ideas. If government is based strictly on race, religion, tribe, or some other factor, it inevitably turns into a strict us-versus-them game. There’s no way to convince someone in another party of the rightness of your own ideas or the wrongness of theirs if the only thing that matters is the color of your skin or the religion you practice.

Given the animosities between the people in the Middle East, I certainly can’t see a open democracy in Israel working better than what happened in SA. In fact, I think it would be worse. Many of the Palestinian leaders have been crystal clear that their goal is not merely to share power with the Jews, but rather to exterminate them. Would you trust those same people to hold the reins of government over you? The Jews would find themselves both a political and a population minority, with no possible way of changing that state short of throwing away all of their birth control and trying to out-breed the Arabs.

[Gaucho]

Guess what, Greece needs more money.

[GaryRissling]

Greece, or the banks that hold Greek paper?