LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

[Gaucho]

Yes, them.

[DelPen]

Guess what, Greece needs more money.

That's unpossible

[Gaucho]

Guess what, Greece needs more money.

That's unpossible

Not really, as Gary correctly pointed out.

[Geezer]

5 million Palestinian refugees were created by the creation of Israel. People who were physically displaced from their homes. That figure is from our State Department.

Yes and no. A lot of the non-Jews who were living in the new Israel at the time of the declaration of independence in 1948 left their homes voluntarily and fled into the West Bank in order to “get out of the way” of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War. A lot of them expected that the Jews would be swiftly annihilated by the combined Arab forces, at which point they could not only return to their homes, they could also take over the now-dead Jews’ property. But to their surprise, the Jews won the war.

Also don’t forget that after the 1948 war Jordan annexed the West Bank (which was supposed to be part of the “Palestinian” state) and ruled it until 1967. Many of those people who now claim to be “refugees” were in fact Jordanians for almost 20 years. Jordan actually stripped those people of Jordanian citizenship when it eventually relinquished its claims to the area years later.

In addition, often overlooked is the fact that almost a million Jews were essentially driven from their homes in Arab countries in the decades following the 1948 war. Arabs ticked off about losing to Israel swiftly turned on their local Jewish populations (many of which had been there for centuries), and a lot of Jews were forced to flee with little more than the clothes on their backs. There were refugees going both directions.

Way to go. Throw facts into issue when it's clear that Israel is the bad guy in the middle of the peace- loving victimized Muslims.

[Gaucho]

Helpful.

[GaryRissling]

It doesn't have to be. In fact, it would be much better IMO if we supported a non-sectarian democracy in Israel that recognized the equality of man; but that is never discussed. Segregation is the preferred solution. I don't for the life of me understand unconditionally supporting any racially/sectarian-based geo-political ideology is in keeping with what we believe as a nation.

It's apartheid.....

Perhaps it is, but what options do the Jews have? Their first and foremost interest is not being killed. Saying they need to move to a democracy provides no assurances, as a democracy is perfectly capable of monstrous atrocities. A favorite quote of mine from British author Theodore Dalrymple comes to mind: “The first thing to remember is that freedom and democracy are not necessarily the same thing at all. A people may easily vote into power a government that wishes to massacre part of the population.” Or as author Terry Goodkind said, “Gang rape, after all, is democracy in action.” A democracy in greater Israel that incorporates everyone with equal voting rights would leave the Jewish residents in the minority. Does anyone think the Arab majority would not, at that point, pull up its sleeves, sharpen its knives, and cheerfully announce “It’s payback time!”?

A good reference for what might happen is Into the Cannibal’s Pot: Lessons for America from Post-Apartheid South Africa by Ilana Mercer, which I’ve reviewed over in the “current book” thread. Basically, when the whites in SA agreed to end apartheid and give blacks full voting rights, it became “payback time.” And because all of the post-apartheid political parties aligned themselves on racial lines—certain parties being “black” parties and certain parties being “while” parties—the control of the government is not based on whose parties or leaders have the best ideas or propose the best policies. Instead, control is based on strict demographics: there are more blacks than whites, so the blacks rule. And because the dominant political parties are racially biased, their primary interest is benefiting their race at the expense of everyone else. Blacks not only rule, but they rule at the expense of the white minority.

One of the main lessons, I think, from Ms. Mercer’s book is that a democracy (or even republic) can only work if government is based on ideas. There must be movement between political parties and political ideas. If government is based strictly on race, religion, tribe, or some other factor, it inevitably turns into a strict us-versus-them game. There’s no way to convince someone in another party of the rightness of your own ideas or the wrongness of theirs if the only thing that matters is the color of your skin or the religion you practice.

Given the animosities between the people in the Middle East, I certainly can’t see a open democracy in Israel working better than what happened in SA. In fact, I think it would be worse. Many of the Palestinian leaders have been crystal clear that their goal is not merely to share power with the Jews, but rather to exterminate them. Would you trust those same people to hold the reins of government over you? The Jews would find themselves both a political and a population minority, with no possible way of changing that state short of throwing away all of their birth control and trying to out-breed the Arabs.

Thoughtful post. My position though isn't necessarily to intervene in such policies, but I do find it counter to our principles that we - as per the house resolution passed during the recent conflict, express unconditional support for such an ideology. It seems we are erring on the side of indefinite and expansive (and to an extent US-taxpayer funded) tyranny as a solution for peace.

[Rylan]

5 million Palestinian refugees were created by the creation of Israel. People who were physically displaced from their homes. That figure is from our State Department.

Edit: Just let Shyster do my talking.

[bh]

Could this be all over soon? I will believe it when I see it.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/ ... 62539.html

[tifosi77]

I've never been a big fan on the War on [noun]. Poverty, Drugs, Terror....... they all seem to have been/be more about appearing to do something rather than actually doing something.

[DelPen]

I've never been a big fan on the War on [noun]. Poverty, Drugs, Terror....... they all seem to have been/be more about appearing to do something rather than actually doing something.

[columbia]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ir ... 24188.html

[Gaucho]

Egypt's supreme court goes on strike.

http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/12/02/252919.html

It would of course be the best solution if all Islamist simply dropped dead, but that, unfortunately, is not going to happen.

[Geezer]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/ir ... 24188.html

Yellow submarines are much more impressive

[shafnutz05]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241374/Muslim-Brotherhood-paying-gangs-rape-women-beat-men-protesting-Egypt-thousands-demonstrators-pour-streets.html

Egypt's ruling party is paying gangs of thugs to sexually assault women protesting in Cairo's Tahrir Square against President Mohamed Morsi, activists said.

They also said the Muslim Brotherhood is paying gangs to beat up men who are taking part in the latest round of protests, which followed a decree by President Morsi to give himself sweeping new powers.

One protestor, Yasmine, told the newspaper how she had been in the square filming the demonstrations for a few hours when the crowd suddenly turned.

Before she knew what was happening, about 50 men had surrounded her and began grabbing her breasts. She said they ripped off her clothes, starting with her headscarf and for nearly an hour, indecently assaulted her with their hands.

A few men tried to help her but they were beaten away. Eventually some residents who had seen the attack from their windows came to her aid and an elderly couple pulled her into their home. She suffered internal injuries and was unable to walk for a week.

Ho hum....just garden variety growing pains in this righteous Arab Spring

[Gaucho]

The people that are now in power aren't the people that made the revolution possible.

[shafnutz05]

The people that are now in power aren't the people that made the revolution possible.

I wouldn't say the two groups are mutually exclusive. Many of the people agitating for a revolution were upset that the Egyptian government was too secular in nature a few years ago.

And let's not forget. The Brotherhood was democratically elected. There were some apologists that tried to describe them as moderate, democratic folk, but it was plainly obvious they weren't.

[Gaucho]

German government approves sale of tanks to Saudi-Arabia and goes on to praise the country as a "stabilising factor" in the region. Right. Like, um, Saddam, and Assad, and Mubarak used to be, you know. Maybe there'd be hope for the Middle East if countries like Germany, Russia, and USA just stopped deciding who does and does not "stabilize" the region.

[Troy Loney]

German government approves sale of tanks to Saudi-Arabia and goes on to praise the country as a "stabilising factor" in the region. Right. Like, um, Saddam, and Assad, and Mubarak used to be, you know. Maybe there'd be hope for the Middle East if countries like Germany, Russia, and USA just stopped deciding who does and does not "stabilize" the region.

Need somebody over there to help fight their battles.

[bh]

German government approves sale of tanks to Saudi-Arabia and goes on to praise the country as a "stabilising factor" in the region. Right. Like, um, Saddam, and Assad, and Mubarak used to be, you know. Maybe there'd be hope for the Middle East if countries like Germany, Russia, and USA just stopped deciding who does and does not "stabilize" the region.

Just pull out and let them stabilize themselves. I've noticed that it seems that the guns you sell today will be pointed back at you in the near future.

[bh]

Study: American Households Hit 43-Year Low In Net Worth
We are as poor as we were in 1963.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/11/ ... net-worth/

[GaryRissling]

The people that are now in power aren't the people that made the revolution possible.

I wouldn't say the two groups are mutually exclusive. Many of the people agitating for a revolution were upset that the Egyptian government was too secular in nature a few years ago.

And let's not forget. The Brotherhood was democratically elected. There were some apologists that tried to describe them as moderate, democratic folk, but it was plainly obvious they weren't.

The arab spring was in part an effort to get rid of a US-backed dictator, Mubarak; which is exactly what we want Morsi to become, IMO. My guess is that in exchange for his help negotiating the cease-fire the US won't interfere with his claims to dictatorship and he'll keep BP's oil flowing to Europe so long as Europe votes for Palestinian recognition in the UN (and bankrolls his regime along with the US, as we did with Mubarak). Not a bad piece of business by Mr. Morsi, provided he survives the next few weeks.

[Geezer]

French president says school homework favors the rich;wants schools to get rid of it.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/03 ... latestnews

[Gaucho]

French president says school homework favors the rich;wants schools to get rid of it.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/12/03 ... latestnews

In light of the French school system, which (as far as I know; feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) typically requires students to stay at school until 4 or 5 pm (including special "working hours", which is basically what students elsewhere do as homework), this may not be such a bad idea at all, albeit not for the reasons Foxnews cites. In fact, the proposal draws both approval and criticisms from liberals and conservatives alike.

Fwiw, a lot of teachers will tell you that this is actually a good idea, as the current system is probably counterproductive.

[Pavel Bure]

Homework is tough because how can you really get mad at an 8 year old who's parents take them somewhere/don't offer a good home environment to complete homework. A lot of times it's punishing the student for their homework not being done due to circumstances outside of their control. If the child has a good home life and parents that care homework isn't really needed in the traditional sense because those parents are going to work with their child at home anyway. I'm on the side of no homework and instead making it optional reinforcement the child can do if they choose to.

[Gaucho]

Iranian Revolutionary Guard claims to have captured US drone, US navy denies claim:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2012/12/05/world/middleeast/iran-says-it-seized-another-american-drone.xml;jsessionid=038E3F8B5628B17B7A0AADBCC0ADE967?f=19