Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 25)

[meow]

I pick 5th?? All the good players will be gone by then.

[MRandall25]

I have last pick. COLLUSION!

[meow]

I would like my team name to be "Muck, Grind, and Repeat." A little foreshadowing, ehh, I think so.

[Gaucho]

the suspense of the first pick is killing me, I wonder...

How could it not be Kevin Hatcher?

[meow]

the suspense of the first pick is killing me, I wonder...

How could it not be Kevin Hatcher?

I thought this was assumed... I must be confused.

[mikey287]

the suspense of the first pick is killing me, I wonder...

How could it not be Kevin Hatcher?

Obviously. But, you never know I guess...

By the way, the games are simulated in an actual garage league...so picking Mario Lemieux first or second would not be advisable...

@meow - sounds good. I value defense a lot, so if you build a good grinding, defensive team, when the playoffs roll around, I might just be in your corner...having done drafts like this before (not specific to a team), I tend to draft defensive players quite a bit and have good success.

[meow]

By the way, the games are simulated in an actual garage league...so picking Mario Lemieux first or second would not be advisable...

Says the guy with the third overall pick

[mikey287]

Hey, I want Hatcher just as bad as you do...but I'm trying to be realistic here...

[champeen]

I can't wait to see how quickly this devolves into a Mikey vs. the rest of LGP debate about the value of Ronnie Francis. Those are always fun.

[mikey287]

Haha, now the only time we had that kind of discussion was in an all-time sense. The scope is significantly narrowed now, so I think everything at the top should be relatively agreeable...

Now, before we get too many more undrafteds mentioned in the thread, hopefully we can get moving on this as soon as dman66 returns...

[meow]

dman is the Minnesota Vikings of this draft.

[MRandall25]

So he has until 12 tomorrow?

[mikey287]

Technically, yes. Though, I don't forsee it taking that long.

[Rylan]

My team name is Degloving Kings for the record.

[Gaucho]

dman needs to show up soon, because it's 1:10am here and I'll eventually go to bed. And I don't want you people to have to wait for me to get up again. Or I could just announce my pick in a PM to mikey plus an alternate pick in case dman elects to pick Kip Miller instead of Hatcher.

[mikey287]

Feel free to PM lists, sorry Gaucho, forgot about the time difference for you (not that I made a discriminatory clock by any means - 24 hours flat). Just send me a list in the order you want players, and I'll be sure to take note. Not a ton of mysteries here in the first round I don't believe.

[dman66]

First, I want to thank mikey for setting this up and being the host/moderator of this draft. I'm pretty pumped about this and honored to have the #1 pick in this draft.

Obviously, huge expectations, yada yada yada. I would argue for exceptional status for Kelly Buchberger, but don't feel like that would be a good use of my time.

Anyway, with the #1 pick in the Penguins All Time Draft, the Left Wing Locks select:

Center - #66 Mario Lemieux

Pretty obvious pick. Not that I have to tell anyone here, but he is the Pittsburgh Penguins. My first memory of hockey was the NYI game 7 in 1993 (too young to remember the Cup wins boo), but there is no greater hockey player I have ever watched. Nothing better than watching Mario make some goalie or Ray Bourque look like a pee wee player.

OK. Enough holding this up for now. Gaucho's on the clock.

[dman66]

Yeah, sorry it took me a bit. First business day of the month is usually busy and long for me. My team will free up as the week goes on, so I'll try to be better on picks.

[mikey287]

Our first surprise of the draft...many expected Kevin Hatcher in the spot - the big, redoubtable defenseman of extreme offensive output...described as a "great teammate, hard working, hard fightin, hard fartin', old-fashioned winner" - often said to be a combo of Bobby Orr, Eddie Shore and a lion, Hatcher will surely not last long.

Of course, Mario. I did make a pretty sweet bio for him once upon a time but I think it's on a computer that died. I'll make something for him, but want to focus my attention on non-Mario's because we all know Mario and his accomplishments.

Edit: no sweat, dman. Just happy to have you on board.

[Gaucho]

No problem at all. Can't speak for the others, but I don't mind if this takes a while.

*****

With their first pick overall, the Charmin Bears are proud to select:

Center - #87 Sidney Crosby

Pretty much a no-brainer, imho, notwithstanding his recent concussion and neck meat problems. When healthy, he is head and shoulders above anybody else, thanks to a tremendous blend of world class skills and an awe-inspiring work ethic.

[mikey287]

I'm actually surprised at this pick to be honest. I really thought it would be Jaromir Jagr at 2. I know how he left us, but there's no denying what he did for us while he was here. I'll make my case for Jagr over the non-Mario's in a bit.

But American Finesse is thrilled to select, RW Jaromir Jagr

Scrap that trading down idea, Rylan...

EDIT: Not that you can necessarily go wrong with Crosby. But based on what he's done so far vs. what Jagr had done for us, I think I can prove that Jagr was the 2nd best Penguin ever. I don't mean to discount the pick at all, Crosby has been roughly the best player in the world since 2006 basically. That's meaningful in its own right. It depends on how you value Jagr, Crosby and [undrafted] really. You can make a good case for any of them.

[Gaucho]

Yeah, it was either Crosby or Jagr (so much for it being a no-brainer, duh...), maybe it should've been Jagr, but can you really go wrong with picking Sid?

Edit: Replied before your edit. As silly as it may sound, I can see me picking Jagr if he had returned to Pittsburgh instead of joining the Flyers or any other team. Not exactly the way a GM should make decisions, I guess.

[mikey287]

Certainly not. Crosby is the man and you're gonna win the PR battle - if there is one - amongst boardies here.

Time to become pro-Jagr again for me. Get ready.

I feel the next pick is a gimme. After that, I'm very curious to see the direction this thing takes...

[dman66]

I agree with mikey that it's Jagr then Sid right now. Couple years, and another Cup or two, and that will hopefully change. I think if Sid didn't have his concussion problems, he would already be past Jagr IMO.

[mikey287]

Jaromir Jagr



Right Wing
6'3" / 230 lbs.
Shoots: Left

As a Penguin (1990-2001): 806 GP 439 goals, 640 assists, 1079 points --- Playoffs: 140 GP 65 goals, 82 assists, 147 points
Team Captain: 1998-2001
2x Stanley Cup Champion (1991, 1992)


Hart: 1st^, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd*, 4th*, 13th*

* - finished behind Lemieux
^ - 51 of 56 first place votes

All-Star Voting (in order by year): 14th*, t-7th, 5th, 1st, 1st^, 2nd, 1st, 1st', 1st, 1st

* - one vote
^ - 49 of 52 first place votes
' - 53 of 56 first place votes

6x First-Team All-Star at Right Wing, 1x Second-Team All-Star

5x Art Ross Trophy Winner (1995, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001)
2x Ted Lindsay Award Winner (1999, 2000)

4x Golden Hockey Stick (for Czech top ice hockey player): 1995, 1996, 1999, 2000

6x NHL All-Star (1992, 1993, 1996, 1998, 1999, 2000)

Vs. the league:
Top-10 goal finishes: 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 6th, 9th
Top-10 assist finishes: 1st, 1st, 1st, 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 7th
Top-10 point finishes: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd, 6th, 9th

Forget about per season stuff vs. teammates because it's an absolute slaughter against the non-Marios...no reason to sit here and plot his scoring finishes among teammates if he torched an entire league 5 times...

Let's just talk Penguins history:
2nd all-time in games played (806) [Lemieux 1st]
2nd all-time in goals (439) [Lemieux 1st, the only other player over 350 with him]
2nd all-time in assists (640) [Lemieux 1st, the only other player over 500 with him]
2nd all-time in points (1079) [Lemieux 1st, the only other player over 1000 with him...hell, the only other player over 700 with him...it's so not close]
1st all-time in plus/minus (+207; Lemieux is 2nd at +115)
2nd all-time in even strength goals (320) [Lemieux 1st at 405]
3rd all-time in points per game (1.34) [Lemieux 1.88, Crosby 1.40]

Jagr's prime with us.

From 1994-95 to 2000-01: Jagr scored 760 points in 495 games. Second place had 615 (Selanne)...in 7 more games. That's 23.6% more points in that same time frame! That's first ballot HHOFer Teemu Selanne's prime as well. Other names he slaughters on that list: Sakic, Forsberg, Francis, Kariya, Fleury, Sundin, Leclair, Oates, Yzerman, etc. Not a bad crop.

Additionally, he produced at ~32% better clip at even strength alone over second place in that time frame.

A supremely dominant prime, nearly unmatched in league history.

Jaromir Jagr, the best player in hockey.

Pittsburgh's explosive offense in general and Jaromir Jagr in particular are the main concerns for the Devils in their four-of-seven-game playoff series with the Penguins...

...

Jagr's speed, strength and scoring ability were the main reasons the Penguins were the second most productive team in the league in the regular season. His scoring prowess has been the main concern for the Devils...

...

Against Boston, the Devils used Claude Lemieux to shadow the Bruins' Cam Neely, but Coach Jacques Lemaire said he had no intention of shadowing Jagr. "There are certain guys you can shadow and others you can't," Lemaire said. "I don't think you can shadow him because he is all over the ice. All the people on the ice will have to be aware of where he is all the time."

If Mario Lemieux and Jaromir Jagr both remain with the Pittsburgh Penguins and withstand the test of time, they may some day be remembered as hockey's equivalent of Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig.

Unlike Gretzky, Lemieux will have the opportunity to school his own successor. He has seen the future of hockey, and its first name, Jaromir, is an anagram for Mario Jr. Jagr, a 20-year-old from Czechoslovakia who joined the Penguins in 1990, scored 32 goals this season, but he didn't truly open up his bag of tricks until Lemieux was injured in the second game of the Patrick Division finals against the Rangers. Since then, he has scored fabulous goal after fabulous goal. Just watching him carry the puck can be a thrill. In Game 1 of the finals he faked and juked his way past three Blackhawks before calmly delivering a backhand shot that tied the score 4-4 late in the third period. "Inexcusable," fumed Keenan. "The greatest goal I've ever seen," gushed Lemieux.

Screaming down the right wing, his long dark hair flopping behind his helmet, the lefthanded-shooting Jagr would time and again beat both defensemen like a pair of rented mules.

"He's a different type of player than the league has seen in a long time," says Scotty Bowman, who coached the Penguins last season and is now the team's director of player development and recruitment. "He has a lot of Frank Mahovlich in him. His skating style and strength make him almost impossible to stop one-on-one. A lot of big guys play with their sticks tight to their bodies and don't use that reach to their advantage like Jaromir does."

...

In style, though, Jagr is something much different from Lemieux. "When Mario gets the puck, he's always thinking, Where can I put it?" says Bowman. "He'll pass the puck off and get himself in a better situation to score than he was in. When Jaromir gets the puck, he's always thinking, Where can I go with it? He reminds me of Maurice Richard in that way. They both played the off-wing, and both had so many moves I don't think either knew which moves they were going to do until they did them. Totally unpredictable."

Of course the NHL could invent other categories for Jagr, besides best-tressed. Best one-on-one player: Jagr. There are faster forwards who might embarrass a defenseman with their speed, but no one plays one-on-one in traffic the way he does. Best combination of skill and strength: Jagr again. The 6'2", 215-pound Czech is the first man to combine the traditional European attributes of slickness, nimble feet and goal scorer's hands with lower-body strength, allowing him to fend off checks and protect the puck. "He's a gorilla, strong as a horse," Penguins coach Ed Johnston says, offering his own vision of Jagr as a crossbreed. "I don't know anybody who's stronger on his skates."

Last month Chicago Blackhawks assistant coach Denis Savard proclaimed Jagr "the best player in the game by a million miles," as if the subject were as closed as a team meeting.

...

"Jaromir should get a cut of every contract of everyone who plays with him before signing a new deal because half the money they're getting is due to him," Constantine says, despite his occasional differences with his star. "He makes it tricky for this organization. We have to ask ourselves how good the guy is. Is he good because he plays with Jagr? Not taking anything anyway from XXXXX XXXXXX, who's a helluva player, but none of the guys Jaromir plays with have a time-tested history of being major talents." There is no one riding shotgun for Jagr the way Joe Sakic does for Forsberg, John LeClair does for Lindros or Selanne does for Kariya. Pittsburgh has several forwards with a clue, but it also has more extras than there were in Titanic.

...

"There are probably four ways to play Jagr, all of them wrong," Montreal assistant coach Dave King says. "He's the toughest player in hockey to devise a game plan against."

When SI asked NHL coaches in September, "Who is the best all-around player in the world?" 19 of the 26 respondents named Penguins right wing Jaromir Jagr. The other seven coaches fell into one of those hard-to-figure minorities, like the one dentist in five who does not recommend sugarless gum for his patients who chew gum.

In 1998, a panel of 50 Czech hockey experts (former coaches, players, team managers, referees, writers, etc.) put together a list of the best Czech players ever. In 1998, mind you, Jagr had 2 Art Ross trophies - not 5. He had 0 Hart Trophies, 0 Ted Lindsay Awards...

The results:
1. Dominik Hasek - 472 points
2. Jaromir Jagr - 357 points
3. Vladimiar Zabrodsky - 240 points

A terrific statement made by the Czech community, though many other players in the top-10 were either "founding fathers" of Czech hockey like Josef Malecek or Bohumil Modry...many others were from the 1970's teams that fought politically-charged hockey battles against the Soviets and won roughly half the time (thanks in some part to dman66's team name).

Jagr is a first-ballot HHOFer if he retires July 10, 2001 - no questions asked

According to Jagr, his biggest goal: