Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 25)

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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:48 pm

I was under the assumption goalies were going to be like kickers and everyone was going to save their goalie picks till the last few rounds... this changes things.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:52 pm

The lack of quality goaltending certainly makes things interesting. If I had picked later in the 1st round, I'd probably have drafted Tommy B as high as 5th.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby dman66 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:06 pm

I agree Gaucho. Craaaaaaaaaaaaaap. All right. I'll be picking within the next hour or two. Need to pick a goalie. Other pick is up in the air....

Definitely didn't think Fleury or Barrasso would go as high. Was hoping for one of them or Murphy to fall down to me....
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:11 pm

Gaucho wrote:Not exactly the best player available, eh?


Far, far from it. Again, like I said, since this draft is in the framework of competition, things like this will happen. And it'll all come out in the wash in the end and maybe can be made better next time (if there's a next time).

Do you have the third best goalie in our history...? uh...probably... That answer in and of itself tells you how much of a stretch that really is. But, you know that already, you're doing it for the competition...and as long as we're all aware of that, it won't taint the results. Whatever results I/we hoped to gain from this venture, that is...

I'm going to - for the time being - basically renounce the last three picks as "out of order", my own included, in the grand scheme of history. However, what comes from this, is likely a list and relatively accurate order of the: X Best Goalies of All-Time, X Best D-Men of All-Time, X Best Centers of All-Time, X Best Wingers of All-Time...which is something we can read a lot into when the time comes. We're a long way away from that and it's good to get this little speed bump out of the way and move on...

I'll make a profile for the three goalies in a row because I have the old stats all tabulated with pre-1983 save percentage numbers and all that noise (relevant to Binkley in this case), so I'll post that up for the group to look over and we'll get a good feel for where we're at...hope to get to that tonight if I can...

I'm looking at my watchlist of players that I think are "due up" pretty soon...and there's a lot of quality still there...

I do have a concern about the thread if the NHL should return - it's rather peaceful around here now and without any personal mod powers and, further, without a mod in sight, I'm a tiny bit weary of what might happen...not sure why I get that negative feeling or how bad it can actually be...but hopefully this thread won't turn toxic in the event of a flood of users return...probably making something out of nothing though...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:16 pm

I'm not really happy with the pick, which pretty much says it all. But it's a draft and the object is to assemble a competitive team, so I figured I'd better get it out of the way (another telling wording). Maybe we should have had an extra round just for goalies. But then, that's not how it works in real life either. At least I didn't pick Craig Hillier. :shock:
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 pm

dman66 wrote: Need to pick a goalie.


Honest opinion: I think you hurt your team more by picking a goalie now because by picking a goalie now, you're giving Rylan and me another quality player that you should have had...do what you feel is best, but at the very least Binkley was a stretch and I believe Fleury was also. Barrasso can't be too terribly far off the mark, but he's still a little higher than I believe he should be. I don't think you're doing your team any favors with a goalie now, personally. The caliber of goalie that is out there now, is not second round material...I don't want to speculate how far down they should be (I really don't know) but I know they aren't on my "due up" list...

Build a strong team that protects the weak goalie (as is the style today) says this unbiased observer...

We're all aware that judging teams with goalie issues will not weigh heavily into the discussion. I know when the time comes I'll be picking apart the top-two goalies to no end to try to drag them down a bit, even though I own one of them. Barrasso's record with us is far from golden.

Carry on as you see fit though, please.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:23 pm

Gaucho wrote:I'm not really happy with the pick, which pretty much says it all. But it's a draft and the object is to assemble a competitive team, so I figured I'd better get it out of the way (another telling wording). Maybe we should have had an extra round just for goalies. But then, that's not how it works in real life either. At least I didn't pick Craig Hillier. :shock:


Yup, I mean, it's just a tough spot. That's all. And if we're all aware of the situation - a situation I've referenced throughout this entire page - then we can adjust accordingly. What's done is done, hopefully this ship won't veer off course too much further...

If I wasn't organizing this thing and didn't already have a rough vision of what it might look like, I would have done the exact same thing as you probably...

I haven't really evaluated below the #3 spot for goalies yet (didn't think I'd have to) but I think it's going to shake out like this...

Barrasso
Fleury


Binkley

[undrafted]


the rest...

I could be wrong, but at a passing glance it might turn out that way...there might be one more goalie above "the rest" after further evaluation...

Let's see where it takes us...I'm just worried about the education experience, if posters that read this thread come away with one more little nugget of information about our club's history, I'll consider it a success...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:25 pm

I don't know, I'd be delighted to have Barrasso. Again, in the grand scheme of things, neither of these goalies should've been gone this early, but then again, it is still the most important position in hockey. At least in my humble opinion.

In any case, I believe that this draft should really get interesting from now on.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:40 pm

Era variables.

Most important position varies by era and team structure.

If I may just steal a post I made from a different board where we're doing an All-Time Goalie Project...it's relevant to your post in some respects...

---
It seems that the difference in talent levels between goalies today isn't nearly (no where close) as big as it was in 1987, 1977, etc. The difference between goaltenders now isn't so much the talent but the consistency in which they can bring their top talent to the forefront...look at a goalie like Marc-Andre Fleury...technical skill, he has to rank as one of the best goalies in the league...it's the consistency in which he can bring that game-stealing nature to the rink every night that makes his stats somewhat questionable.

But how big of a difference is there talent wise between Jonas Hiller and Jimmy Howard? It's really that great of a gap? I wouldn't guess so, I would just guess that Hiller doesn't play for as strong of a defensive team anymore and Jimmy Howard played behind Nicklas Lidstrom...

Brian Elliott went from the unlikely position of being one of the worst goalies in the league with Ottawa and maybe on his way out of the league in 2011, but then broke the record* for save pct. and became statistically the best goalie in the league in 2012 because he practiced a little harder in the 3-month offseason and had a protein shake or two? Seems unlikely...I'd say that playing behind Ken Hitchcock helped him...

Goalies, individually, aren't as important to a team's success as they were 20 years ago...

Look at the goaltending matchups in the Finals over the years, the value of goaltending is at its lowest ever...

1967: Sawchuk/Bower vs. Vachon/Worsley
68: Worsley/Hall
69: Vachon vs. Hall/Plante
70: Cheevers vs. Hall/Plante/Wakely
71: Dryden/Esposito
72: Johnston/Cheevers vs. Giacomin/Villemure
73: Dryden/Esposito
74: Parent/Gilbert
75: Parent vs. Crozier/Desjardins
76: Dryden/Stephenson
77: Dryden/Cheevers
78: Dryden/Cheevers
79: Dryden/Davidson
80: Smith/Peeters
81: Smith vs. Beaupre/Meloche
82: Smith/Brodeur
83: Smith/Moog
84: Fuhr/Moog vs. Smith/Melanson
85: Fuhr/Lindbergh
86: Roy/Vernon
87: Fuhr/Hextall
88: Fuhr vs. Moog/Lemelin
89: Vernon/Roy
90: Ranford/Moog
91: Barrasso/Casey
92: Barrasso vs. Belfour/Hasek
93: Roy/Hrudey
94: Richter/McLean
95: Brodeur/Vernon
96: Roy/Vanbiesbrouck
97: Vernon/Hextall
98: Osgood/Kolzig
99: Belfour/Hasek
2000: Brodeur/Belfour
01: Roy/Brodeur
02: Hasek/Irbe
03: Brodeur/Giguere
04: Khabibulin/Kiprusoff

I see a lot of goalies that should be in the top-60 lists pouring in soon, no?

Now look...coaching takes a huge grip, it's no longer a player's game and look at what happens...

2006: Ward vs. Roloson - Upstart rookie Ward takes Gerber's job (then loses it, Gerber comes back and gets a shutout, then Ward takes back over and Ward wins the Smythe) vs. Roloson, a career journeyman who was hot then hurt...

2007: Giguere vs. Emery - Giguere a system goalie goes for one last hurrah, though Bryzgalov was hot on his heels (I think he led the playoffs in goalie stats in 2006 and broke Giguere's team record for longest shutout streak...I think he even won a series in 2007)...Emery a fringe goalie riding shotgun to an Ottawa team that features a very good defense that gets torn limb from limb in a two or four year stretch...the amount of goaltender lateral movement in this series was at an all-time low...

2008: Osgood vs. Fleury - Career over-cocky attaboy Osgood plays behind one of the strongest teams (the strongest?) since the lockout, ends up being the only thing that gives the young Pens a chance...young Fleury helps will the team to the Finals, but has never been recognized as elite...

2009 Osgood vs. Fleury - Role reversal, Osgood plays better than in 2008 and loses out...Fleury has a few less bad breaks this time around...either way, a never-was vs. a will-he-ever-be...

2010: Niemi vs. Leighton - Another instance where the weakest link of a team is the goaltending (2007 losers, 2008 winners, 2009 losers same) with Antti Niemi who plays rather poorly throughout the Finals but is out-done in his horrificness by a career minor leaguer in Leighton who puts together a despicable performance and allows such a bad Cup clinching goal that no one on the planet would have guessed it went in until Patrick Kane was halfway down the rink...I'm guessing this will go down as the worst goalie matchup in Finals history, or at least I hope so...

2011: Thomas vs. Luongo - Career journeyman Thomas gets the W despite his best efforts vs. Montreal and Tampa Bay (and really even against Vancouver early in the series, that Burrows OT winner was a tremendous blunder) and is awarded a Conn Smythe because there really wasn't anyone else to give it to...Luongo, much-maligned for his past (though somewhat unjustified), clearly isn't the same goalie since being traded...not a terrible guy to make the Finals though I suppose..

2012: Quick vs. Brodeur - Finally, a decent goalie matchup. Well past his prime Brodeur vs. the young Quick...Kings team steamrolls everyone, Quick doesn't allow any game to get close...Brodeur does all he can, but when your number one defenseman is Marek Zidlicky, well, it's a wonder you won a playoff series at all...

---

In the 20 years from 1984-2004, is there anyone that went to the Finals that won't at least be considered for a top-60 list? Jon Casey? Lemelin? R.Brodeur? Anyone else? [amended slightly]

Percentage-wise, it's looking strong against the new guys...even if you consider system goalies like Giguere/Thomas/Osgood part of the potential top-60...Ward probably won't, Roloson won't, Emery will never get close, Fleury is there with Ward, Niemi will never get close, Leighton is a minor leaguer, Quick maybe well down the line...

Inauspicious...

/post duplication

Anyway...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:55 pm

Damn, I thought it was the protein shakes... :wink:

Interesting and insightful points for sure.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby meow on Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:10 pm

I figured the first two or three picks after Barrasso and Fleury would be key to whether there was going to be a quick little run if goalies. If there were no goalies taken right after that, then there was going to be a large gap until the other teams picked a goalie. We will see...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby dman66 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:42 pm

All right. I've had some time to think about this and mikey's right.

Without further ado, with the #12 pick in the Pens All Time Draft, the Left Wing Locks select:

Left Wing - #25 Kevin Stevens

Image

Stevens accomplishments as a Pen:
3 time All Star (1991, 1992, 1993)
2nd in NHL points in 1991-1992
1st team All Star in 1991-1992
2 time 2nd team All Star (1990-1991, 1992-1993)
4 consecutive seasons of 40+ goals

Ranks in Pens history:
13th in games played
5th in goals scored
9th in assists
7th in points
1st in PIMs
9th in points per game

With Mario Lemieux in the middle, there is no better choice to be on his left side.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:57 pm

Very good, not much for longevity, but he has one of the best peaks left out there and maybe the best among forwards in terms of peak...it's one of historical recognition among all players, not just Penguins.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 2)

Postby dman66 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:09 pm

With the #13 pick overall, and first pick of the 3rd round, the Left Wing Locks are pleased to add:

Defenseman - #25 Randy Carlyle

Image

Carlyle's Penguin accomplishments:
Norris Trophy Winner (1980-1981) - Only Penguin to win Norris Trophy
Two time All-Star - 1981, 1982
Penguins Captain - 1981 - 1984

Ranks in Pens History (among D-Men):
6th in games played
4th in goals
3rd in assists
3rd in points
3rd in points per game

Pretty comfortable with him as my #1 dman. He played on some pretty bad teams in the early 80s and while +/- doesn't tell the whole story, his is pretty bad (though his Norris year he was a -16).

Best quote I could find was this from The Phoenix on January 10, 1981:
Just when we're moving ahead and playing well, we lose Carlyle. He's our #1 man, our #1 defenseman, our quarterback. Without him, we'll be in a lot of trouble.


Can't so who the quote was from, as he's eligible for the draft, but Carlyle, while on teams that weren't exactly the best, was an integral part of the pre-Mario Pens.
Last edited by dman66 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:12 pm

Damn...I was hoping he would get ignored and I would get another gift...I'm not sure he wasn't the BPA for the last few picks...

To supplement what you have there...

Randy Carlyle

Position: Defense
5'10" / 200 lbs.
Shoots: Left
As a Penguin: 1978-1984 (397 GP - 66 goals, 257 assists, 323 points)

All-Star Voting: 2nd* (80-81), 12th (81-82), t-12th (78-79)
* - 1st team

Hart voting: t-11th [3rd among d-men] (80-81)
Norris: 1st* (80-81), 13th (81-82)

* - Only Norris Trophy in Penguins history

2x All-Star (1981, 1982)
Team Captain: 1981-84

---
Scoring Among Penguins (5 full seasons, 1 partial: 6 total):

Among Pens defensemen in points: 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 1st, 2nd*
Among all Pens in points: 2nd, 2nd, 4th, 6th, 9th, 10th*

* - year he was traded, only played 50 games with Pens
----
Scoring vs. all NHL defensemen (in order by year, doesn't include '84)

AD: 14th, 32nd, 1st, 4th, 15th

---
Approximate Ice Time Among Pens:
1978-79: #1 defenseman, #1 in overall ATOI
1979-80: #3 defenseman, #3 in overall ATOI
1980-81: #1 defenseman, #1 in overall ATOI (by more than 5 minutes!)
1981-82: #1 defenseman, #1 in overall ATOI (by more than 5 minutes!)
1982-83: #1 defenseman, #1 in overall ATOI (by nearly 4 minutes!)
1983-84: #3 in overall ATOI before being traded

Legends of Hockey wrote:Carlyle was allowed to play and develop in Pittsburgh, and quickly hit his stride as a strong defensive leader with offensive talents.


Pittsburgh Post Gazette, Mar. 2, 1979 wrote:Hockey fans in and around Toronto are said to be steamed up over the loss of defenseman Randy Carlyle, who has blossomed into one of the National Hockey League's finest since being traded to the Penguins last summer.


While Penguin Coach XXXX XXXXXX may go a little overboard comparing the 22-year-old blueliner to the incomparable Bobby Orr, others around the league think Carlyle stacks up favorably against a young Brad Park


Similar in many ways, Carlyle lacks only Park's blazing slap shot.


For reference to those that don't know, Brad Park - a 6x runner-up for the Norris to Bobby Orr - is considered a borderline top-10 d-man of all-time!

Beaver County Times, Feb. 25, 1979 wrote:Carlyle moved to the Penguins...to play the point on the power plays and has proved no disappointment.


"Carlyle has great anticipation. That's why I put him on the ice for our power play. (Coach XXXXXX XXXXXX)


The Montreal Gazette, Mar. 6, 1984 wrote:"We respect Carlyle's proven abilities as a defenceman," said [Jets GM John] Ferguson. (Carlyle was traded for a 1984 1st round pick and future considerations and was remarked as one of the biggest, if not the biggest, deals at the trade deadline that year)


The Pittsburgh Press - Jul. 9, 1981 wrote:Scotty Bowman, from the old school of "you can't hit'em if you can't see'em" stressed speed and youth when he invited 35 players to the Team Canada training camp for the...Canada Cup. Randy Carlyle of the Penguins, acclaimed the NHL's best defenseman last season, and two-time MVP Wayne Gretzky...headed the list of players invited...


The Weekend Herald - Apr. 14, 1981 wrote:St. Louis could have knocked out Pittsburgh (from the playoffs). Instead, the Penguins got a big game from defenceman Randy Carlyle - two goals, plus an assist - and beat the Blues, 6-3.


The Calgary Herald - Feb. 1, 1984 wrote:The Flames made a pitch for Pittsburgh defenceman Randy Carlyle while here in New Jersey. Carlyle, the former Norris Trophy winner, is one of the league's hottest commodities on the block.


The Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1980 wrote:reminds many people of a young Brad Park... was not a favourite of serious-minded Toronto coach Roger Nielson...


The Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1982 wrote:...rugged for his size...


The Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1983 wrote:offensively, he's as good as any defenseman there is in the game, says Barry Beck... Rugged player who plays a physical game... some rivals question his skills under forechecking pressure in defensive zone... crowd favourite among critical Pittsburgh fans.


The Complete Handbook of Pro Hockey 1984 wrote:an offensive defenseman... also pretty tough... not great defensively, but doesn't need much help... best at keeping front of the net clear...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby dman66 on Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:25 pm

Thanks mikey! After the first round, I was hoping to get either Carlyle or Murphy. Even if Murphy was available, I still would have taken Carlyle I think. While Murphy is a hall of fame player, Carlyle's time with the Pens was more important and he was better and younger. Too bad the Pens got rid of him before drafting Lemieux, though they may have not been able to draft him if he was still around.
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby mikey287 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:11 am

Despite kind of flowery portrayal of him from Legends of Hockey (as I cautioned), Carlyle was not regarded very highly defensively, even for his era. He had fallen off quite a bit in 1983 and the talk was that he was just a big fish in a small pond and was already falling off considerably. It seemed at the time that maybe Winnipeg had overpaid for Carlyle...but he rebounds quite nicely with the Jets and goes on to have a fulfilling career and evolves into a better defensive player than he ever was in Pittsburgh. In fact, he continues to get scant Norris/AS votes in the later part of the 80's...

Murphy was far better defensively and probably not too far offensively either. Just a better player. Even though it feels that Murphy's time here was fairly short, I think if you factor playoffs into it, Murphy actually plays more time for us. Carlyle wins his Norris (which, truth be told, is considered a pretty weak choice on a historic scale - not dissimilar to Duncan Keith's a couple years ago...one of those ones we'll look back on and go, "huh? yeah? alright...whatever...") just before the Golden Age of Defensemen swings into full gear and he never gets close to that level again. Murphy, meanwhile, has three top-5 finishes for the Norris in 4 full seasons with us when you consider the competition, I think Murphy has a more impressive case.

The Pens with Carlyle ended up nowhere...we made the playoffs sure, but so did everyone else at that time (12 of 17...17 of 21 made it in those years). We were largely just cannon fodder for the what-could-have-been Bruins and the burgeoning Islanders empire...with Murphy we won 2 Cups and he was the #1 d-man on maybe the best team we ever had in 1993.

That said, I think it's pretty appropriate where they both went. Carlyle is a good value here and if paired with a steady partner, he'll be a great #1 d-man for this "level" of play...he wasn't going to make it past my pick, I'll say that much...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby Rylan on Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:45 am

I was hoping for Carlyle was going to drop to me. Damn
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:46 am

Rylan wrote:I was hoping for Carlyle was going to drop to me. Damn
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:51 am

Meh, guess I can't complain, since he was out there for me...
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:02 am

Well, looks like Crosby finally gets his winger:

RW - # 17 Rick Kehoe

Longevity and consistency are key here. Kehoe is 4th all-time on the Penguins list with 722 games and his 636 points (312 G, 324 A) have since only been surpassed by #66 and #68. Played in the NHL All-Star Game in 81 and 82 and won the Lady Byng in 81.

Image
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby mikey287 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:49 am

You know how picky Jagr can be about his centerman...got a nice right-handed one for him...

Image

Syl Apps, Jr., C
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby Rylan on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:05 am

Damn!
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby meow on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:49 am

Go, Rylan! Go!!
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Re: Pittsburgh Penguins All-Time Draft - (Round 3)

Postby no name on Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:54 am

lemieux-stevens you had to get these guys together.

Man some big names out there i still can't believe are still on the board.
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