Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby Hawkeynut on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:54 am

I think a deal is to be had and soon. While both sides blew up last night, there was progress made this week. Sure, the owners took things off the table but they will be quick to put them back on if the players budge on something else. What you saw yesterday was the core issues being tackled. Everytime these two get to those issues, things blow up but other things get hammered out.

All in all, they have hammered out the cash issues (which if you remember were the sticking point at first) now they are stuck at the length of the new CBA and the length of contracts in general.

There is a deal to be had, just not sure who or what negotiating teams will get it done. We will be watching NHL hockey by Jan 1st once cooler heads prevail, I just feel it.

Here is the summar of this weeks negotiation emotions:

:pop: :) :evil: :roll: :) :? :shock: :evil: :scared: :cry:
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Re: Lockout

Postby SoupOrSam on Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:56 am

What's going to hit them is most likely low and slow sales this holiday season. I don't know too many friends and relatives that have even mentioned anything at all Penguins related. While I do not think the Pens are the issues, I imagine that's going to be the same with many teams. Screw them all is my attitude. Players and owners can beg for my money because it's going to be a long long time before I drop $ down on anything NHL related. Don't care if it's just me either.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:02 am

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why was the nhlpa's proposal met with "no" and no further scheduled talks? Why not come back and say this cant work because...and how about this instead. This is a negotiation, not a contract bid. This is how the nhl has been operating all along. Say what you want about the nhlpa, but no matter how you look at it, they are making very real efforts to keep things moving, and the nhl is not.


Well, the irony to me is the league gave a bunch of concessions backs and everyone seemed happy, the free agent rules and $300 million make good or whatever they call it. The players seemed to have agreed.

The points of giving those back was in exchange for the years and such. If you negotiate points then take back your side of movement that's not negotiating. Al that Fehr is doing now is saying "see see see they gave up more lets keep doing this, Hhahahahah". Eventually someone will walk away from the table because of complete mistrust which is what the owners did. I'm fine with it.

Now the players are crying foul because its a one way street. I mean were they even listening the past few days?


All i see is a normal response to a proposal, im not sure what the pa changed that affects league revenue streams...and im not sure why the league cared.


Because the players seemed to agree to the limits in conjunction with concessions the owners gave. Without limits or some standard rules to contract length, the continuing overall health of the league will be limited because of teams able of front load contracts and circumvent the cap. It's a large part of what made the last CBA need changed.

Did they remove the 5% change part of the cba? I have heard nothing about that bei taken out.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Defence21 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:02 am

shafnutz05 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Im glad people are finally seeing how awful he is. He has always been horrible but for some reason people tolerated him for a while


It admittedly took me a while to come around, because I was sympathetic to his rants against the Pirates. But yeah, it's getting ridiculous at this point. His continued rampage against Hoka Hey is amusing

I've been saying that ever since he jumped from the PG tot he Trib, his whole schtick has changed. Instead of writing based on what is presented to him -- as a columnist, NOT a journalist -- he is now creating his own stories. He asks Bettman about the two lockouts, then takes Bettman's anger-filled answer and writes a column of how this is why he needs fired. He also had a teaser post on Facebook asking "Did Crosby's flight with Burkle offend other players?" The answer, once I read his column, was a pretty clear "no." So why ask the question? I'll tell you why. He needs readers and is using sensationalist techniques to generate them.

Yohe and Rossi do the same. Yohe, most recently, has been Tweeting/Facebooking teasers of "new" stories, then linking to something a week or two old. That is just plain garbage.

The Trib is becoming an absolute joke with regard to sports coverage, and it's unfortunate, because they actually have some good writers there.

Sorry for the soapbox.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:15 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I dont think there will be a strike, the owners will prevent a strike and just lock the players out. When we see the lockout and lost season before fehr and thenthe lockout and lost season after him, i think people will realize he wasnt the problem...or maybe its more realistic to think people will still blame him as well as retroactively blame him for 04-05.


Yup. The problem today, and it'll still be a problem 10 years from now, is that the spread of wealth in the NHL is too extreme. Here are some numbers using what was reported by Forbes as a baseline: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html
Last edited by tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lockout

Postby mikey287 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:27 am

I'd just like to remind all that Forbes has little to no authority on these numbers and many current and former team employees balk at their estimates. Some have been pretty conclusively determined to be substantially off the mark. They are rather vague estimates and for entertainment purposes only.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:33 am

mikey287 wrote:I'd just like to remind all that Forbes has little to no authority on these numbers and many current and former team employees balk at their estimates. Some have been pretty conclusively determined to be substantially off the mark. They are rather vague estimates and for entertainment purposes only.


Right, which is why I'm not trying to claim those numbers to be accurate - just as a set of numbers to work off of.
Last edited by tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Lockout

Postby mikey287 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:34 am

Certainly, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise, you know what the numbers are and what they represent (and don't represent). Some may try to take them to the bank and withdraw meaningful conclusions from them.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:43 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why was the nhlpa's proposal met with "no" and no further scheduled talks? Why not come back and say this cant work because...and how about this instead. This is a negotiation, not a contract bid. This is how the nhl has been operating all along. Say what you want about the nhlpa, but no matter how you look at it, they are making very real efforts to keep things moving, and the nhl is not.


Well, the irony to me is the league gave a bunch of concessions backs and everyone seemed happy, the free agent rules and $300 million make good or whatever they call it. The players seemed to have agreed.

The points of giving those back was in exchange for the years and such. If you negotiate points then take back your side of movement that's not negotiating. Al that Fehr is doing now is saying "see see see they gave up more lets keep doing this, Hhahahahah". Eventually someone will walk away from the table because of complete mistrust which is what the owners did. I'm fine with it.

Now the players are crying foul because its a one way street. I mean were they even listening the past few days?


All i see is a normal response to a proposal, im not sure what the pa changed that affects league revenue streams...and im not sure why the league cared.


Because the players seemed to agree to the limits in conjunction with concessions the owners gave. Without limits or some standard rules to contract length, the continuing overall health of the league will be limited because of teams able of front load contracts and circumvent the cap. It's a large part of what made the last CBA need changed.

Did they remove the 5% change part of the cba? I have heard nothing about that bei taken out.


No, they didn't. The NHL still wants the 5% variation + max contract lengths; the NHLPA countered with conditional variations and longer max contract lengths.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:46 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why was the nhlpa's proposal met with "no" and no further scheduled talks? Why not come back and say this cant work because...and how about this instead. This is a negotiation, not a contract bid. This is how the nhl has been operating all along. Say what you want about the nhlpa, but no matter how you look at it, they are making very real efforts to keep things moving, and the nhl is not.


Well, the irony to me is the league gave a bunch of concessions backs and everyone seemed happy, the free agent rules and $300 million make good or whatever they call it. The players seemed to have agreed.

The points of giving those back was in exchange for the years and such. If you negotiate points then take back your side of movement that's not negotiating. Al that Fehr is doing now is saying "see see see they gave up more lets keep doing this, Hhahahahah". Eventually someone will walk away from the table because of complete mistrust which is what the owners did. I'm fine with it.

Now the players are crying foul because its a one way street. I mean were they even listening the past few days?


All i see is a normal response to a proposal, im not sure what the pa changed that affects league revenue streams...and im not sure why the league cared.


Because the players seemed to agree to the limits in conjunction with concessions the owners gave. Without limits or some standard rules to contract length, the continuing overall health of the league will be limited because of teams able of front load contracts and circumvent the cap. It's a large part of what made the last CBA need changed.

Did they remove the 5% change part of the cba? I have heard nothing about that bei taken out.


I didn't mean that. The owners can't push contract terms because with extra years and % variances it opens up the door for " loopholes" to get to,p players signed.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:52 am

The NHL which is not a top 5 sport in this country is offering a very fair deal in the marketplace (compared to the NFL or NBA) and guaranteed contracts. It has more teams losing money than the other leagues and has the worst supplemental revenue and counts on fans directly more than any of the others.

The sooner the players realize this the better. In my mind they need to realize their place in the sports world.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:55 am

A good read from Pierre LeBrun: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/2 ... kidding-me

Are the owners and players really going to let the season get canned over the differences that remain in the two offers?

I would make the argument that the players are crazy to take that kind of financial hit rather than accept what the league and owners offered Wednesday night.

Similarly, the owners are out of their minds if they don’t see elements in the NHLPA’s counteroffer that they can live with to get hockey back this season.

Are we really going to drop the ax on an entire season because the owners are THAT adamant about five-year term limits for player contracts? And are the players THAT opposed to five-year contract term limits that they will let an entire season’s worth of salary go down the drain?

It’s pure madness in my opinion. All of it. Both sides.


Conversely, I question Bettman’s decision to halt talks Thursday night. Why not respond to the NHLPA’s counteroffer Thursday night by saying it’s still not good enough but, hey, let’s meet again Friday and keep plugging away?

Well, I’ve got one theory on that. Given reports that players were having intense, sometimes heated debate internally Thursday as they decided how to proceed, it might very well be that the NHL and the owners smell blood. They might believe the players are finally cracking and that by pulling this week’s new elements off the table, they’ll get those players who are questioning union leadership to nullify Fehr and make a deal with the league.

Who knows, maybe their calculation is right about that. But as one player told ESPN.com on Thursday night after the theatrics were done, why wouldn’t the league submit a full formal offer? That’s the only way players would have a chance to vote on it membership-wide, he figured.

Again, good point.

In the end, once again the drama has overtaken the facts on this night.

I don’t believe the two sides are that far apart at all.

One NHL governor told ESPN.com that they were shown both offers from the league and NHLPA in the board of governors meeting.

"I looked at them both and wondered how this thing isn’t done already," he said.

And those were previous offers. Not the ones from the past 24 hours that showed more movement from both sides.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_CT on Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:59 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I dont think there will be a strike, the owners will prevent a strike and just lock the players out. When we see the lockout and lost season before fehr and thenthe lockout and lost season after him, i think people will realize he wasnt the problem...or maybe its more realistic to think people will still blame him as well as retroactively blame him for 04-05.

The only person who consistantly brings up 04-05 is Fehr, especially when he rails on how much the players sacrificed for that agreement. I'd like to hear his opinion on what the NHL would look like today if that rollback in salaries did not occur. Does the really believe there would still be 30 NHL teams? Or does he even care if some NHLPA members get thrown overboard by contraction so long as his image is protected? When the players hired Fehr they knew what they were getting, a lockout with a possibility of another season shot to hell. Well they are getting what they asked for.
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Re: Lockout

Postby newarenanow on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:08 am

I could see if they were still far apart and things broke down, but just from some reports, they seem to be very close, but the two bullhead men (Bettman D. Fehr) get involved and it goes to hell. Frustrating.
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_CT on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:24 am

tfrizz wrote:A good read from Pierre LeBrun: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/2 ... kidding-me

Are the owners and players really going to let the season get canned over the differences that remain in the two offers?

I would make the argument that the players are crazy to take that kind of financial hit rather than accept what the league and owners offered Wednesday night.

Similarly, the owners are out of their minds if they don’t see elements in the NHLPA’s counteroffer that they can live with to get hockey back this season.

Are we really going to drop the ax on an entire season because the owners are THAT adamant about five-year term limits for player contracts? And are the players THAT opposed to five-year contract term limits that they will let an entire season’s worth of salary go down the drain?

It’s pure madness in my opinion. All of it. Both sides.


Conversely, I question Bettman’s decision to halt talks Thursday night. Why not respond to the NHLPA’s counteroffer Thursday night by saying it’s still not good enough but, hey, let’s meet again Friday and keep plugging away?

Well, I’ve got one theory on that. Given reports that players were having intense, sometimes heated debate internally Thursday as they decided how to proceed, it might very well be that the NHL and the owners smell blood. They might believe the players are finally cracking and that by pulling this week’s new elements off the table, they’ll get those players who are questioning union leadership to nullify Fehr and make a deal with the league.

Who knows, maybe their calculation is right about that. But as one player told ESPN.com on Thursday night after the theatrics were done, why wouldn’t the league submit a full formal offer? That’s the only way players would have a chance to vote on it membership-wide, he figured.

Again, good point.

In the end, once again the drama has overtaken the facts on this night.

I don’t believe the two sides are that far apart at all.

One NHL governor told ESPN.com that they were shown both offers from the league and NHLPA in the board of governors meeting.

"I looked at them both and wondered how this thing isn’t done already," he said.

And those were previous offers. Not the ones from the past 24 hours that showed more movement from both sides.


None of these issues the NHL brings up are worth losing a season over. The only reason this is still going on is Don Fehr. You bring in four moderate owners who really want an agreement to start playing again, they make a significant move in the players direction and what happens, by all accounts Fehr tells the players to hold out for a better offer. While that last statement is not confrimed, how else do you manage to pi** off these four owners, on Wednesday to the point they walked out of the room? Fehr was certainly behind this move, and if not for him there would probably be an agreement today.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:26 am

Yeah, it was amazing how things all of a sudden turned sour again overnight.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:40 am

pens_CT wrote:
tfrizz wrote:A good read from Pierre LeBrun: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/2 ... kidding-me

Are the owners and players really going to let the season get canned over the differences that remain in the two offers?

I would make the argument that the players are crazy to take that kind of financial hit rather than accept what the league and owners offered Wednesday night.

Similarly, the owners are out of their minds if they don’t see elements in the NHLPA’s counteroffer that they can live with to get hockey back this season.

Are we really going to drop the ax on an entire season because the owners are THAT adamant about five-year term limits for player contracts? And are the players THAT opposed to five-year contract term limits that they will let an entire season’s worth of salary go down the drain?

It’s pure madness in my opinion. All of it. Both sides.


Conversely, I question Bettman’s decision to halt talks Thursday night. Why not respond to the NHLPA’s counteroffer Thursday night by saying it’s still not good enough but, hey, let’s meet again Friday and keep plugging away?

Well, I’ve got one theory on that. Given reports that players were having intense, sometimes heated debate internally Thursday as they decided how to proceed, it might very well be that the NHL and the owners smell blood. They might believe the players are finally cracking and that by pulling this week’s new elements off the table, they’ll get those players who are questioning union leadership to nullify Fehr and make a deal with the league.

Who knows, maybe their calculation is right about that. But as one player told ESPN.com on Thursday night after the theatrics were done, why wouldn’t the league submit a full formal offer? That’s the only way players would have a chance to vote on it membership-wide, he figured.

Again, good point.

In the end, once again the drama has overtaken the facts on this night.

I don’t believe the two sides are that far apart at all.

One NHL governor told ESPN.com that they were shown both offers from the league and NHLPA in the board of governors meeting.

"I looked at them both and wondered how this thing isn’t done already," he said.

And those were previous offers. Not the ones from the past 24 hours that showed more movement from both sides.


None of these issues the NHL brings up are worth losing a season over. The only reason this is still going on is Don Fehr. You bring in four moderate owners who really want an agreement to start playing again, they make a significant move in the players direction and what happens, by all accounts Fehr tells the players to hold out for a better offer. While that last statement is not confrimed, how else do you manage to pi** off these four owners, on Wednesday to the point they walked out of the room? Fehr was certainly behind this move, and if not for him there would probably be an agreement today.


People keep saying things like this but i must be failing to read between the lines. I saw the nhl make an offer, the pa countering it, and the nhl becoming outraged by this counter which by all accounts was not far from the nhls proposal. At this point talks broke down. Take it or leave it negotiating is not negotiating. My assumption is that they are trying to squeeze the players and this is the best way theycan do that, by leaving the table every time fehr is standing across from them. I do not believe that the owners are operating any more in the long term(or short term) interests of a 30 team league than the players are.
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Re: Lockout

Postby llipgh2 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:48 am

Photo of Dan Winnik (Ducks), Ron Hainsey (Jets), Chris Campoli (Blackhawks), in the back of the room at Bettman's presser. The expressions on their faces - priceless.

Image
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:50 am

I cannot properly express my confusion with regards to the nhl's reaction to the pa's proposal. Does anyone understand it? Respond sayin this cant work, this cant work, we can discuss this, this is something we can bend on, this cant work...why shut down talks at that point? Baffling and frustrating. I havent cared about the nhl for a couple months now but have been interested when negotiations are taking place. That is starting to fade. I have no idea what that means to me as a fan of the nhl.
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Re: Lockout

Postby llipgh2 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:55 am

What this is boiling down to now is an absolute power struggle between Bettman and Fehr. I honestly think that one breaking the other is more important to them than the sides they represent.

I don't think either one gives a crap about the season, the players or the owners. All they care about is who will come out on top.

I hate them both.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:04 pm

I cant wait for the next cup final. I really want to see the winnig captain shake bettman's hand. Ill get that picture framed.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:06 pm

llipgh2 wrote:I hate them both.
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Re: Lockout

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:08 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I cannot properly express my confusion with regards to the nhl's reaction to the pa's proposal. Does anyone understand it? Respond sayin this cant work, this cant work, we can discuss this, this is something we can bend on, this cant work...why shut down talks at that point? Baffling and frustrating. I havent cared about the nhl for a couple months now but have been interested when negotiations are taking place. That is starting to fade. I have no idea what that means to me as a fan of the nhl.


Because the league gave up make good money to the tune of $80 million more dollars and gave up on UFA requests in exchange for the years. The NHLPA said "great, all your concessions are fine, our proposal is not going to include the reason you made the concessions in the first place".

Fehr went to the players and said "see the gave up on that, don't sign we can get more".

It wasn't negotiating, it was bullcrap and his presses after was more of the same. what's the point of the league making concessions if Fehr is going to backtrack on his.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Steve on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:11 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I cannot properly express my confusion with regards to the nhl's reaction to the pa's proposal. Does anyone understand it? Respond sayin this cant work, this cant work, we can discuss this, this is something we can bend on, this cant work...why shut down talks at that point? Baffling and frustrating. I havent cared about the nhl for a couple months now but have been interested when negotiations are taking place. That is starting to fade. I have no idea what that means to me as a fan of the nhl.


I understand and agree with all of this - this entire post is pretty much exactly how I feel.

I do blame both sides however. I'm just on the sidelines - but it sounds like Fehr did a good job for his side, gaining more concessions - but played one hand too many, and the owners had enough. I don't really blame them for being livid - but to walk away now, doesn't make sense. The "it's our way, or the highway" attitude seems silly - especially since the NHL keeps coming back with better offers, after stating they made their "best offer"...

I really can’t believe we're we are right now with all of this mess. It's mind boggling to me, that both sides are this close to flushing the season down the toilet - and a bunch of fans along with it.

I've said it before - if we lose this season, I'll come back - but I'll be a different NHL fan, there's no question about it. Two labor stoppages this close together, just unbelievable.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:12 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I cannot properly express my confusion with regards to the nhl's reaction to the pa's proposal. Does anyone understand it? Respond sayin this cant work, this cant work, we can discuss this, this is something we can bend on, this cant work...why shut down talks at that point? Baffling and frustrating. I havent cared about the nhl for a couple months now but have been interested when negotiations are taking place. That is starting to fade. I have no idea what that means to me as a fan of the nhl.


Because the league gave up make good money to the tune of $80 million more dollars and gave up on UFA requests in exchange for the years. The NHLPA said "great, all your concessions are fine, our proposal is not going to include the reason you made the concessions in the first place".

Fehr went to the players and said "see the gave up on that, don't sign we can get more".

It wasn't negotiating, it was bullcrap and his presses after was more of the same. what's the point of the league making concessions if Fehr is going to backtrack on his.


What are the players backtracking on exactly? They are still conceeding on limited contract lengths. I have said this before and its getting tiring saying it. There has not been a single portion of any proposal in this whole process that has given the players anything. It is all degrees of concession on the players' part.
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