Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby columbia on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:01 pm

I'm watching Nashville at Pittsburgh on Fox Sports South.

Spoiler:
February 2010.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:10 pm

columbia wrote:I'm watching Nashville at Pittsburgh on Fox Sports South.

Spoiler:
February 2010.


Was that the one where Brooks Orpik scored?
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_CT on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:20 pm

MRandall25 wrote:@Aportzline

I know, I know. You've heard this previously. But two sides are so close now "they could spit on each other," one source said.

So if they are that close why do they need a mediator? Not sure what the definition of close is anymore when talking about this CBA.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:28 pm

pens_CT wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:@Aportzline

I know, I know. You've heard this previously. But two sides are so close now "they could spit on each other," one source said.

So if they are that close why do they need a mediator? Not sure what the definition of close is anymore when talking about this CBA.


So the NHL will negotiate with Fehr and vice versa. It's basically to keep the two sides from doing something insanely stupid.

Also, if they're that close and can't come to a conclusion on contracts (League wants 5 with 7 for returners, PA wants 8), then a mediator definitely helps there.

A mediator can be used at any time, not just when both parties are far apart. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use a mediator to get through this?
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Re: Lockout

Postby penny lane on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:31 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
columbia wrote:I'm watching Nashville at Pittsburgh on Fox Sports South.

Spoiler:
February 2010.


Was that the one where Brooks Orpik scored?


Game before the 2010 olympics. B Orpik was treated to the USA, USA , USA serenade.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:44 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:@Aportzline

I know, I know. You've heard this previously. But two sides are so close now "they could spit on each other," one source said.

So if they are that close why do they need a mediator? Not sure what the definition of close is anymore when talking about this CBA.


So the NHL will negotiate with Fehr and vice versa. It's basically to keep the two sides from doing something insanely stupid.

Also, if they're that close and can't come to a conclusion on contracts (League wants 5 with 7 for returners, PA wants 8), then a mediator definitely helps there.

A mediator can be used at any time, not just when both parties are far apart. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use a mediator to get through this?


Mediators can also suggest solutions that are not on the table, anything that can spark discussion or ideas is a good thing. My worst fears are about the trasitition talks, moving from one CBA to another, contract buy outs, moving money from one side to another, if they are close to a deal Fehr will streatch this out as long as he can. Squeezing every cent from the owners, and from the way things have gone to this point, every time he tried this Bettman and Daly quickly call off talks.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Pitt87 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 9:46 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:@Aportzline

I know, I know. You've heard this previously. But two sides are so close now "they could spit on each other," one source said.

So if they are that close why do they need a mediator? Not sure what the definition of close is anymore when talking about this CBA.


So the NHL will negotiate with Fehr and vice versa. It's basically to keep the two sides from doing something insanely stupid.

Also, if they're that close and can't come to a conclusion on contracts (League wants 5 with 7 for returners, PA wants 8), then a mediator definitely helps there.

A mediator can be used at any time, not just when both parties are far apart. Why shouldn't they be allowed to use a mediator to get through this?


Mediators are probably more effective when the two sides are close. They can facilitate small issues while major items are prioritized for agreements and avoids the lengthy legal process of the standard channels.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Cagsjr724 on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:36 pm

Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Pitts on Tue Dec 11, 2012 11:59 pm

Cagsjr724 wrote:Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.

The only thing I saw on twitter that might support this is rumors of NHL teams telling support staff to be on the ready and calling NHL players overseas to start returning to the States. One rumor says Ottawa has asked their whole roster to return to the city.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Digitalgypsy66 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:00 am

Cagsjr724 wrote:Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.

I saw the Blue Jackets beat writer Tweet something to that effect (@APortzline). "So close that they are in spitting range" or something like that.

https://twitter.com/Aportzline/status/2 ... 0874412032
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:12 am

Digitalgypsy66 wrote:
Cagsjr724 wrote:Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.

I saw the Blue Jackets beat writer Tweet something to that effect (@APortzline). "So close that they are in spitting range" or something like that.

https://twitter.com/Aportzline/status/2 ... 0874412032


Yeah I posted that last page... That's one of the few that I've seen. Doesn't necessarily guarantee a deal, but if they're as close as they are, it's still a good sign.
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Re: Lockout

Postby mikey287 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:17 am

Pitts wrote:
Cagsjr724 wrote:Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.

The only thing I saw on twitter that might support this is rumors of NHL teams telling support staff to be on the ready and calling NHL players overseas to start returning to the States. One rumor says Ottawa has asked their whole roster to return to the city.


There are some funky tax laws in some of those countries (Andre? Tomas?) that require you to pay taxes after X amount of time...I don't know very much about it, but considering the insurance costs, the payment these guys are receiving and the reward (mainly just staying in shape in case there's an NHL season), it really doesn't make any sense to be looped into taxes in another country. Not sure if that's the reasoning or even if I'm talking some serious jive right now...

Unless of course you're Ryan O'Reilly...then you're over there (with a 2 year deal) until Colorado gives you the money you want...

What happened to good ol' fashioned hold-outs...? Instead of this no-season nonsense...at least with hold-outs nobody missed Alexei Yashin or Nikolai Zherdev...
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Re: Lockout

Postby pens_srq on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:18 am

A good move if I were the league would be to get all the players over here and claim Fehr spoiled the deal again.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:01 am

pens_srq wrote:A good move if I were the league would be to get all the players over here and claim Fehr spoiled the deal again.


Except when they ask the other players if it's true, the players will say "They're lying to you to try and get us to sign a deal we don't want blah blah blah."

Come on, the players aren't THAT dumb :wink:
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Re: Lockout

Postby Lt. Dish on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:33 am

MRandall25 wrote:
DudeMan2766 wrote:IF the NHL does resume this year and we have a season, how annoying is it going to be when someone expresses displeasure with a certain player or criticizes the Pens if they arent playing well, that people are invariably going to retort with "AT LEAST WE HAVE HOCKEY TO WATCH! Gah! Some people are never happy!! Just enjoy the fact that we have hockey!"


I'll be that guy :pop:


I'll be that girl to my hub when he has his regular conniption during a Pens-Flyers game. Fer sher.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Lt. Dish on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:37 am

Cagsjr724 wrote:Anyone else hear Madden on his show today claiming multiple legit reports on twitter saying the Kovalev deal is so close that its inevitable the deal gets done this week?? I have seen nothing on twitter remotely close to his claim.


Sorry. It was just sitting there and I... :oops:

Nevermind. As you were. :)
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 12, 2012 8:36 am

pens_srq wrote:A good move if I were the league would be to get all the players over here and claim Fehr spoiled the deal again.


How is that a good move?
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Dec 12, 2012 9:17 am

I just hope this deal works and proves to be a good deal for both sides as they can just renew it when it expires so we don't have to go through this again and again and again.....

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nhl/2012/12/11/nhl-talks-to-resume-wednesday-explaining-issues/1760825/

Good article on some issues that still remain to be solved.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Noise on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:21 am

I didn't even think of the contract limits like that:

Players don't favor any CBA clause that restricts players movement. They are also worried about preserving their middle class. Let's look at Zach Parise's case. He signed a $98 million deal last summer, with a cap hit of a little more than $7.5 million. If the owners' proposal was in place last summer, he probably would have received a five-year offer of $50 million to $60 million, a cap hit of between $10 million and $12 million. If the Minnesota Wild had signed him at that number, they could not have signed Ryan Suter with him. With stars likely pulling down more money, there would be less for teams to pay their third- and fourth-liners.
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Re: Lockout

Postby beLIEve on Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:57 am

Noise wrote:I didn't even think of the contract limits like that:

Players don't favor any CBA clause that restricts players movement. They are also worried about preserving their middle class. Let's look at Zach Parise's case. He signed a $98 million deal last summer, with a cap hit of a little more than $7.5 million. If the owners' proposal was in place last summer, he probably would have received a five-year offer of $50 million to $60 million, a cap hit of between $10 million and $12 million. If the Minnesota Wild had signed him at that number, they could not have signed Ryan Suter with him. With stars likely pulling down more money, there would be less for teams to pay their third- and fourth-liners.


You probably didn't think of contract limits like that because its flawed logic. If you look at Minnesota in a vaccuum, sure, it might elminate some "middle class" salaries on their team if Parise had a 10-12 million cap hit.

But you can't look at it in a vaccuum. This is a 30 team league. If Minnesota can no longer fit a "middle class" player under their cap thanks to his higher cap hit, some other team now can fit him in.

This is all about making sure the talent is equally dispersed in the league rather than concentrated on the teams that can afford it. It is not about eliminating "middle class" contracts.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:04 pm

More flawed logic. What if every single teams signs a player to that kind of contract?
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:08 pm

Which is exactly what they'd do to stay "competitive", before they whine about losing money again.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:17 pm

Gaucho wrote:More flawed logic. What if every single teams signs a player to that kind of contract?


It seems like its designed so teams can't have more than 1 or 2 stars on a team. If you got 2, 10 million dollar players you can only fit lower level talent around them.

Or you can sign more of Mid-teir star talent at a lower cap hit.

It comes down to a GM building a team not just stocking up on star tallent. You will see alot more player movement under this system, i really don't like that at all.
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Re: Lockout

Postby beLIEve on Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:22 pm

Gaucho wrote:More flawed logic. What if every single teams signs a player to that kind of contract?


That's a sign that we have a healthy league, which benefits players and owners both by more ticket sales, more merch sales, more HRR, and higher salaries across the board.

But I don't think that was your point. Your more specific question, if I understand it, deals with what happens to the middle class contracts in that case?

If you leave things as they stand today, with everyone cheating the cap, the only thing you're really cheating balance between teams. You allow the rich teams to have the high contracts (and presumably better players), while the poor teams don't.

What you don't change is total dollars paid out to the players as a whole. As a group, the NHLPA members still get x% of HRR at the end of the day, no matter how many cap cheater deals are signed. That pool of money is a fixed amount once the season ends. So when Parise gets his $98 million cap cheater deal instead of $60 million or whatever, who is he really swindling that extra money from? Its coming out of his fellow NHLPA members' pockets. The more Parise gets paid, the less other players get returned from escrow.

So sure, when cap cheating is allowed, the middle class player's contract may say $3 millionish on paper. And yes, that would tend to be higher than what it would say in a non-cap cheating world. But is he really taking home less at the end of the day after Parise and company eat up all of that escrow on his fancy looking $3 million (on paper) contract? That remains to be seen. But I suspect the gap between the 2 is lower than you might think.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Wed Dec 12, 2012 1:00 pm

I just don't like the league using a 5 year deal thing that has naver been tested on an open market. Players will play to their UFA an go somewhere to get the right salary, since teams won't have the room to pay them. When the NYR, etc can't buy great teams i think they will start singing different tunes about this 5 year deal thing.
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