Lockout

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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:33 pm

Sarcastic wrote:Anyone knows how much they're paying Malkin in Russia?


The KHL put a rule in that locked out NHLers can't be paid more than 65% of their NHL salary, so Malkin is making no more than $5.85-million.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:37 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:Anyone knows how much they're paying Malkin in Russia?


Nowhere close to how much he'd make if he signed there as a free agent.


The KHL agreed to pay up to 65% of what they were making on their NHL contracts. I
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:38 pm

I read somewhere that Geno will earn the same as in the NHL in case of a lockout. Not sure if true.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:16 pm

no name wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:Anyone knows how much they're paying Malkin in Russia?


Nowhere close to how much he'd make if he signed there as a free agent.


The KHL agreed to pay up to 65% of what they were making on their NHL contracts. I


Yes, which is nowhere near what he'd garner in free agency if he decided to go to the KHL.
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Re: Lockout

Postby mikey287 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:47 pm

I don't know all the rules off hand, but their salary cap over there is half of what ours is (roughly), I'm not sure how much more he would garner really...what's he at now, 1/6 of the cap? Keep in mind, they dress 22 men, not 20 like us also. So that money has to stretch a tiny bit further.
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:39 pm

The 5 year deals does open up the KHL to compete with our UFAs, they could offer Geno a 10 year deal where we coldn't do that. Would you take a 5 year 50 million deal or a 10 year 85 million deal.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Gaucho on Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:51 pm

The 5-year-deal of course.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:19 pm

Russians have a history with 5 year plans.
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Re: Lockout

Postby opie22002 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:52 pm

"My message to owners and to players is, 'You guys make a lot of money and you make a lot of money on the backs of fans, so do right by your fans. You can figure out how to spread out a bunch of revenue that you're bringing in, but do right by the people who support you,"' Obama said. "And I shouldn't have to be involved in a dispute between really wealthy players and even wealthier owners. They should be able to settle this themselves. And remember who it is that's putting all that money in their pockets."
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Re: Lockout

Postby champeen on Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:57 pm

opie22002 wrote:"My message to owners and to players is, 'You guys make a lot of money and you make a lot of money on the backs of fans, so do right by your fans. You can figure out how to spread out a bunch of revenue that you're bringing in, but do right by the people who support you,"' Obama said. "And I shouldn't have to be involved in a dispute between really wealthy players and even wealthier owners. They should be able to settle this themselves. And remember who it is that's putting all that money in their pockets."

please tell me this is a real quote, because it's awesome.
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Re: Lockout

Postby opie22002 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:12 pm

champeen wrote:
opie22002 wrote:"My message to owners and to players is, 'You guys make a lot of money and you make a lot of money on the backs of fans, so do right by your fans. You can figure out how to spread out a bunch of revenue that you're bringing in, but do right by the people who support you,"' Obama said. "And I shouldn't have to be involved in a dispute between really wealthy players and even wealthier owners. They should be able to settle this themselves. And remember who it is that's putting all that money in their pockets."

please tell me this is a real quote, because it's awesome.


Yeah it's real.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl-lock ... ate_dec13/
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Re: Lockout

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:56 pm

Did anything happen today? I don't follow any tweets and not much news out there.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:58 pm

Both sides are supposed to talk tomorrow. Met with mediator again today. As far as I know, no one said anything save that they'd talk tomorrow in some capacity.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Senka on Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:19 am

Let me summarize.

2 months ago: both sides talked, not enough progress. Meetings broke away and part of the season was cancelled.
1 month ago: both sides talked, not enough progress. Meetings broke away and part of the season was cancelled.
3 weeks ago: both sides talked, not enough progress. Meetings broke away and part of the season was cancelled.
last week: both sides talked, not enough progress. Meetings broke away and part of the season was cancelled.
tomorrow: both sides talk, not enough progress. Meeting breaks away and part of the season is cancelled.
Next week: both sides talk, not enough progress. Meeting breaks away and part of the season is cancelled.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:28 am



"The NHL wants to limit personal player contracts to five years, seven for a club to re-sign its own player and has elevated the issue to the highest level of importance. The union countered with an offer of an eight-year maximum length with the variable in salary being no greater than a 25 per cent difference between the highest-paid year of the deal and the lowest."

8 years and 25% means cap circumvention as it had been in these last several years. The players are more interested in getting paid than improving the game. I'm done with them. It will be hard rooting for any once hockey comes back. And I hope the league gives not an inch more. Time to squash them.

Seriously. There are a few of you here rooting for the players. That means you guys want cap circumvention to continue, yes?
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:00 am

It's not a matter of variance; I don't expect the owners to want the 25%, unless the 25% language actually means you subtract 25% from the highest value and that's the lowest you can go (which is how I originally interpreted it, incorrectly if I may add).

It's the contract year limits. You can still have 8 year contracts without circumvention. Find the middle ground (which IMO should be 6 year max for FA, 8 for returners. Gives the players longevity with a team, but doesn't handcuff the owners (basically adds 1 more year to the proposed)). The % variance is really meaningless unless you're talking straight year-by-year salary numbers.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:05 am

I'd be OK with 6 years. Length isn't imporant to me, personally, but for whatever reason the league wants 5 years and I can't believe that this stalemate could be about a single year there. Seems silly on both sides, doesn't it? I would think it has more to do with the 5% - 25%.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Sarcastic on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:07 am

But under no circumstance should the NHL agree to longer term and a higher % or the players get it all and we're back to teams cheating.
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:11 am

Sarcastic wrote:I'd be OK with 6 years. Length isn't imporant to me, personally, but for whatever reason the league wants 5 years and I can't believe that this stalemate could be about a single year there. Seems silly on both sides, doesn't it? I would think it has more to do with the 5% - 25%.


Without a calculator/pen and paper, I couldn't give you a percentage that would be fair/how it would play out, but 5% really isn't enough to effectively keep cap hits low, and I have a feeling owners would find ways to exploit the system again or go crazy on FA's and offer insanely high deals to lure FA's, similar to how Parise and Suter were lured with huge signing bonuses in years 1 and 2.

I wonder if they'd take 7 or 10%
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Re: Lockout

Postby MRandall25 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:15 am

Sarcastic wrote:But under no circumstance should the NHL agree to longer term and a higher % or the players get it all and we're back to teams cheating.


I don't think anybody here, myself included, thinks the players should get everything. We understand it. The players aren't going to get everything. However, the owners need to be willing to bend a little on these contract limits/variance things, even if it is only 1 or 2 years and 2 or 3 % on the variance. The players also need to recognize this and come down a little from the 25%.

We don't know if they have, though, because for some reason, they still won't meet and try to sort it out.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:58 am

Sarcastic wrote:


"The NHL wants to limit personal player contracts to five years, seven for a club to re-sign its own player and has elevated the issue to the highest level of importance. The union countered with an offer of an eight-year maximum length with the variable in salary being no greater than a 25 per cent difference between the highest-paid year of the deal and the lowest."

8 years and 25% means cap circumvention as it had been in these last several years. The players are more interested in getting paid than improving the game. I'm done with them. It will be hard rooting for any once hockey comes back. And I hope the league gives not an inch more. Time to squash them.

Seriously. There are a few of you here rooting for the players. That means you guys want cap circumvention to continue, yes?


25% difference between the highest paid and lowest paid, for the NHL's largest current contracts, would be $3mil. In those contracts, the variance is 92%, on average. Even Max Talbot's contract would be voided by this. While this would drive up total salaries if terms are longer, it would shift more dollars to stars (i.e. negatively affect 75% of the union who sees salaries drop before they benefit from this), and probably affect competition as some teams simply could not afford to buy the best available player. This suggestion is lose-lose, ironically.

Cap circumvention benefits owners (leverage cash to get the best available player) and players (more cap dollars per player) alike, but negatively affects competition and financial viability. The owners are trying to increase their levered positions with their offer, and the players are trying to push the cap as high as they can across the board. This is still a deep, broad chasm.
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Re: Lockout

Postby tfrizz on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:21 am

MRandall25 wrote:It's not a matter of variance; I don't expect the owners to want the 25%, unless the 25% language actually means you subtract 25% from the highest value and that's the lowest you can go (which is how I originally interpreted it, incorrectly if I may add).

It's the contract year limits. You can still have 8 year contracts without circumvention. Find the middle ground (which IMO should be 6 year max for FA, 8 for returners. Gives the players longevity with a team, but doesn't handcuff the owners (basically adds 1 more year to the proposed)). The % variance is really meaningless unless you're talking straight year-by-year salary numbers.


The NHLPA's wording was that the lowest year "can not be less than 25% of the highest year".

IIRC the NHL's wording on their variance is that a player's salary can change by more than 5% of the value of the first year. So if you sign a guy to $2-million in the first year of a contract, any successive years can't be any more than $100,000 off the previous year. It eliminates any kind of structured deals, even back-loading, and will end up inflating the salaries and cap hits of the stars.



For example, here's Crosby's current contract starting in the 2013-14 season:
$12M, $12M, $12M, $10.9M, $10.9M, $10M, $9M, $9.6M, $9M, $3M, $3M, $3M ($104.4M / 12 = $8.7M cap hit)

And here it is with the 5% variance rule, following the same structure but capping the changes:
$12M, $12M, $12M, $11.4M, $11.4M, $10.8M, $10.2M, $10.8M, $10.2M, $9.6M, $9.6M, $9.6m ($129.6M / 12 = $10.8M cap hit)
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Re: Lockout

Postby no name on Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:31 am

I think my idea gives the owners and players the best of both worlds.

Player can sign 8 year deals, but only the first 5 years is guarenteed, after that each year the owner has to agree to pay another year. if the owner wants out of the deal the player becomes a UFA. This contract would be for like Geno we can offer him 8 year 80 million, after year 5 Geno sucks we don't have to extend it another year. Or after year 5 you can say yes we want to extnd it again. If we don't he is a UFA and can go else where or resign with his current team.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Tico Rick on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:15 am

Why would a player want that? If he sucks after 5 years he knows he'll get cut. If he overachieves, he'll still be stuck with the same team and contract. That's a lose-lose situation from a player's perspective.
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Re: Lockout

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:24 am

Tico Rick wrote:Why would a player want that? If he sucks after 5 years he knows he'll get cut. If he overachieves, he'll still be stuck with the same team and contract. That's a lose-lose situation from a player's perspective.

Yeah that scenario is no different from the 5 year contracts
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