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Steve wrote:I don't know if there are alot of owners who really don't care if they turn a profit. Many of these franchises are owned by corporations or partnerships, have minority interests etc, or in the Pens case, multiple owners.
As for asset appreciation - it would be interesting to see a comparison against returns of similar risk investments - if that's even possible.
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Steve wrote:I don't know if there are alot of owners who really don't care if they turn a profit. Many of these franchises are owned by corporations or partnerships, have minority interests etc, or in the Pens case, multiple owners.
As for asset appreciation - it would be interesting to see a comparison against returns of similar risk investments - if that's even possible.
The issue is that it is not comparable. A single owner type (even with investors or multiple owners in theory is no different - money going back to ownership) is not nearly the same as a company with stock options. The business side, the %'s, the payouts, the overall businesses couldnt be more different. Plus a team in the NHL is run with extremely high expenses with limited returns (except for a handful of the big money teams) and very limited tangible assets (not in an accounting sense but in a real dollar value sense).
Most teams own very little. They lease buildings, their products are their players and so forth. Their net value is someone buying the right to own the name, agreement with the NHL/NHLPA and things like a lease. If the NHL folded tomorrow there would be nothing to sell by individual teams other than leftover white out tshirts.
Noise wrote:1. Many people willingly lose money. What do you call hobbies, spouses, children, pets etc? Rich people find more expensive ways to lose money because they can. You can't take it with you after all.
2. The rich can have multiple businesses and not all of them make money. Many rich people will have their spouse run a business that never makes a dime, and they just write off the losses.
3. If the world's gonna be wiped out by a plague then your wealth means nothing. Lots of people have long term investments & I'm pretty sure they don't worry about those possibilities.
shmenguin wrote:Is the idea that owners expect to lose money year to year actually based on any evidence, or is it just a wild guess?
Smells funny in here
Gaucho wrote:shmenguin wrote:Is the idea that owners expect to lose money year to year actually based on any evidence, or is it just a wild guess?
Smells funny in here
They certainly know it's a very real possibility. Is that better?
Gaucho wrote:shmenguin wrote:Is the idea that owners expect to lose money year to year actually based on any evidence, or is it just a wild guess?
Smells funny in here
They certainly know it's a very real possibility. Is that better?
Steve wrote:As for asset appreciation - it would be interesting to see a comparison against returns of similar risk investments - if that's even possible.
Sarcastic wrote:Noise wrote:1. Many people willingly lose money. What do you call hobbies, spouses, children, pets etc? Rich people find more expensive ways to lose money because they can. You can't take it with you after all.
1. I won't even tackle that one. I feel like I just lost a few brain cells.
“It’s absolutely an awesome feeling,” said Ellison, who has spent more than $100 million over the years chasing the cup. “I’m really proud to be part of this team. I couldn’t be more proud.”
interstorm wrote:Steve wrote:As for asset appreciation - it would be interesting to see a comparison against returns of similar risk investments - if that's even possible.
on average, NHL team appreciation from 2005 to current day did much better than ownership of the average stock on the Dow in the same time period. don't take my word -- go crunch some numbers.
here are some specifics (again) on NHL franchises:
Rangers bought for $195M in 1997 and estimated at $750M now. This is an increase of $555 million in 15 years ($37M per year).
Canucks bought for $207M in 2005 and estimated at $342M now. This is an increase of $135 million in 7 years ($19.29M per year).
Oilers bought for $170M in 2008 and estimated at $225M now. This is an increase of $55 million in 4 years ($13.75M per year).
Senators bought for $92M in 2003 and estimated at $220M now. This is an increase of $128 million in 9 years ($14.22M per year).
Penguins bought for $107M in 1999 and estimated at $288M now. This is an increase of $181 million in 13 years ($13.92M per year).
Flyers bought for $150M in 1996 and estimated at $336M now. This is an increase of $186 million in 16 years ($11.63M per year).
Devils bought for $125M in 2004 and estimated at $205M now. This is an increase of $80 million in 8 years ($10M per year).
Capitals bought for $85M in 1999 and estimated at $250M now. This is an increase of $165 million in 13 years ($12.69M per year).
Kings bought for $113M in 1995 and estimated at $276M now. This is an increase of $163 million in 17 years ($9.59M per year).
Sharks bought for $147M in 2002 and estimated at $223M now. This is an increase of $76 million in 10 years ($7.6M per year).
Ducks bought for $70M in 2005 and estimated at $192M now. This is an increase of $122 million in 7 years ($17.43M per year).
Hurricans bought for $48M in 1994 and estimated at $162M now. This is an increase of $114 million in 18 years ($6.33M per year).
Islanders bought for $130M in 2000 and estimated at $155M now. This is an increase of $25 million in 12 years ($2.08M per year).
Being fair:
Predators bought for $174M in 2007 and estimated at $167M now. This is an increase of $-7 million in 5 years ($-1.4M per year).
Wild bought for $225M in 2008 and estimated at $218M now. This is an increase of $-7 million in 4 years ($-1.75M per year).
Panthers bought for $200M in 2009 and estimated at $170M now. This is an increase of $-30 million in 3 years ($-10M per year).
Blue Jackets bought for $173M in 2011 and estimated at $145M now. This is an increase of $-28 million in 1 years ($-28M per year).
Overall you can see, though, appreciation has done quite well. Some such as Burger will say this is due to appreciation since the cap and doesn't count (whatever that means -- i'll take a hundred million of not counting money any day). Let's look at his stance in detail:
Rangers 2003 estimate is $272M, up from $195M in just 6 years.
Flyers 2003 estimate is $252M, up from $150M in just 7 years.
Capitals 2003 estimate is $130M, up from $85M in just 4 years.
Kings 2003 estimate is $183M, up from $113M in just 8 years.
Hurricans 2003 estimate is $109M, up from $48M in just 9 years.
...Looks like good appreciation there too.
Yeah - I keep posting this (and I know Forbes isn't an authority -- but it is what we have to work with). Others counter with just their "gut" and boo-hooing reality.
Then again - this is a message board. In the history of forums, probably 75% of posts are argumentative and .01% of the time does anyone ever change their mind.
shmenguin wrote:So just because something appreciates means that
A) the owner wants to sell it
B) the owner finds it acceptable that is loses money every year
?
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Why not figure out everyone's losses and instead of casually mentioning losses or focusing on a yearly dollar amount post the totals over those same years?
interstorm wrote:shmenguin wrote:So just because something appreciates means that
A) the owner wants to sell it
B) the owner finds it acceptable that is loses money every year
?
...nope - the owner can keep it (if they want money, you know they can get loans against it -- right?) and for some teams like Anaheim that Forbes estimates lost $10 million a year -- what we don't see is that overall the team has appreciated over $17 million a year. So "losing" money many not really be true if one looks holistically at the franchise.
I'm still for a 50/50 split in revenue -- but as I've said all along, I think the owners have been disingenuous in painting this picture that their franchises are failing and the league is nearing economic collapse at the hands of the players. I think the "hill we die on" rhetoric is harmful and their so-called compromises only look charitable when cast against their original offer.
I cannot even fathom a group of people asking for contract length limits (again, to protect themselves from themselves) after how they signed so many long term ones this year and i really lose respect for these people who are looking to break their promise (contract) that they willingly gave (because redefining HRR in their own interest to pull the contract value back down is just underhanded).
interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Why not figure out everyone's losses and instead of casually mentioning losses or focusing on a yearly dollar amount post the totals over those same years?
...hey - i've contributed plenty of numbers. here's a novel idea -- how about YOU figure these out! you're the one who supposedly wants it!
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Why not figure out everyone's losses and instead of casually mentioning losses or focusing on a yearly dollar amount post the totals over those same years?
...hey - i've contributed plenty of numbers. here's a novel idea -- how about YOU figure these out! you're the one who supposedly wants it!
You brought it up for the 30th time and provided only one set of numbers. The rest of have seen them all before, 1000 times in these two threads.
interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Why not figure out everyone's losses and instead of casually mentioning losses or focusing on a yearly dollar amount post the totals over those same years?
...hey - i've contributed plenty of numbers. here's a novel idea -- how about YOU figure these out! you're the one who supposedly wants it!
You brought it up for the 30th time and provided only one set of numbers. The rest of have seen them all before, 1000 times in these two threads.
ok - so what's holding you back from getting new numbers? it's ok - the internet won't bite...
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:interstorm wrote:BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Why not figure out everyone's losses and instead of casually mentioning losses or focusing on a yearly dollar amount post the totals over those same years?
...hey - i've contributed plenty of numbers. here's a novel idea -- how about YOU figure these out! you're the one who supposedly wants it!
You brought it up for the 30th time and provided only one set of numbers. The rest of have seen them all before, 1000 times in these two threads.
ok - so what's holding you back from getting new numbers? it's ok - the internet won't bite...
Because its been discussed at length, they have been posted 1000 times and again you are the one seemingly focused on one side of the argument.
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