Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pfim on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:04 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:I'd say yes because it allowed them to sign Liriano.

I also wouldn't be surprised at all of Melancon outperforms Hanrahan this season. Relievers are so volatile and the AL East and the NL Central are two different worlds.


While I like the Liriano signing, I'm not entirely sure how that makes them much better. He'd have to revert to Cy Young form which doesn't seem likely.

Second, there's no reason why they have to clear payroll to sign Liriano. Perhaps the transactions were related, but why? They could have had Liriano and gotten a better haul at the same time as well.

Melancon will be fine, agreed.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Malkamaniac on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:09 pm

I never understood the clearing payroll part unless they planned to trade Hanrahan already knowing that it would likely be a money dump for him.

It feels like they signed a guy because the Pirates didn't want to pay 7+ million to a closer(and ended up paying 6.25 or whatever for Grilli).

I am so tired of hearing the, help is along the way in the minors theory. If that was the case, they wouldn't continually try and add to the farm in the way they do.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:32 pm

Malkamaniac wrote:I never understood the clearing payroll part unless they planned to trade Hanrahan already knowing that it would likely be a money dump for him.

It feels like they signed a guy because the Pirates didn't want to pay 7+ million to a closer(and ended up paying 6.25 or whatever for Grilli).

I am so tired of hearing the, help is along the way in the minors theory. If that was the case, they wouldn't continually try and add to the farm in the way they do.


kenny the kangaroo is terribly vexed about the trade.

on one hand, the pirates management has been yakking about how they are willing to pay more money and they are interesting in winning now.

but by the same token, they are willing to trade their all star closer for some guys that may or may not help the major league team this year, and while management may not say it, hanrahan's price tag probably had something to do with it. so it brings back the whole question: when is managment going to make an all out committment to winning?

obviously no one really knows if hanrahan is going to end up working in boston or if any of the four players the pirates acquired will help the pirates break the .500 mark.

but it would be nice to see a move for guys that may or may not contribute for an all star is kind of discouraging.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:36 pm

All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:09 pm

offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.

I dont understand how you can remember the collapse and still say they are a feeder team. They were unquestionably competitive last season.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Malkamaniac on Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:24 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.

I dont understand how you can remember the collapse and still say they are a feeder team. They were unquestionably competitive last season.


Agree with this, and I think the actual trade deadline moves did more damage to the actual team than helped in the mental department. Casey was apparently well liked, Lincoln looked like he was the answer there and it did nothing but mess with the psyche.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:25 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.

I dont understand how you can remember the collapse and still say they are a feeder team. They were unquestionably competitive last season.


Didn't we just feed a very good closer to a large market team? And noone is sure what we got in return. As for being competitive, maybe for half the season but, finishing 10th out of 16 might not qualify as competitive. The first part of a season means little and when it came time to compete or go home, they choose to go home.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:38 pm

Malkamaniac wrote:Agree with this, and I think the actual trade deadline moves did more damage to the actual team than helped in the mental department. Casey was apparently well liked, Lincoln looked like he was the answer there and it did nothing but mess with the psyche.


Kenny the kangaroo maintains that one of the biggest reasons why the pirates were sent into a downward spiral after the trade deadline is kevin correia's pouting about losing his roation spot. Hurdle/Management tried to appease that turd by creating that goofball 6 man rotation, and that 6 man rotation sent everything off the track. The bullpen was never able to find its groove without lincoln and being short a reliever thanks to whiner correia.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:51 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
Malkamaniac wrote:Agree with this, and I think the actual trade deadline moves did more damage to the actual team than helped in the mental department. Casey was apparently well liked, Lincoln looked like he was the answer there and it did nothing but mess with the psyche.


Kenny the kangaroo maintains that one of the biggest reasons why the pirates were sent into a downward spiral after the trade deadline is kevin correia's pouting about losing his roation spot. Hurdle/Management tried to appease that turd by creating that goofball 6 man rotation, and that 6 man rotation sent everything off the track. The bullpen was never able to find its groove without lincoln and being short a reliever thanks to whiner correia.


You could be right, but I thought they were just trying to rest some arms because of what happened the year before. Either way, it didn't work out well.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby jprolley on Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:59 pm

lets not forget the teamwide culture of striking out/popping up with runners on 3rd and less than 2 outs.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Malkamaniac on Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:48 pm

What I still can't figure out, is why McLouth couldn't do anything here, and then went crazy at Baltimore.

I always have the feeling that it's this way with a lot of players. Is it the coaching or what's going on?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:11 pm

Malkamaniac wrote:What I still can't figure out, is why McLouth couldn't do anything here, and then went crazy at Baltimore.

I always have the feeling that it's this way with a lot of players. Is it the coaching or what's going on?


Couldn't do anything in Atlanta either. He just had to go to the cushy AL East to succeed. :pop:
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:29 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
kenny the kangaroo is terribly vexed about the trade.

on one hand, the pirates management has been yakking about how they are willing to pay more money and they are interesting in winning now.

but by the same token, they are willing to trade their all star closer for some guys that may or may not help the major league team this year, and while management may not say it, hanrahan's price tag probably had something to do with it. so it brings back the whole question: when is managment going to make an all out committment to winning?

obviously no one really knows if hanrahan is going to end up working in boston or if any of the four players the pirates acquired will help the pirates break the .500 mark.

but it would be nice to see a move for guys that may or may not contribute for an all star is kind of discouraging.



When your payroll is slated for $70M, it doesn't make a lot of sense to spend 10% of that on a guy who wasn't as good last year as he was the previous two years. I guess I don't understand the "all out commitment" part, because people keep saying they won't believe the Pirates are serious about committing until they do [X], and then the Pirates do that and people invent new standards. They traded for salary in 2011 when people said the Pirates had to do that to prove they were serious. They added Burnett after trying to get Oswalt in the 2012 offseason when people said they wouldn't believe the Pirates were serious unless they added a starting pitcher. They signed Cutch when people said they had to do that to be serious. They added Wandy when people said the Pirates had to make trades to be serious, and then they raised their payroll to the highest it's been in a while. What exactly do people want before they stop moving the goalposts?

I get it, the Pirates have done a lot of dumb things. But it's not fair to set a standard, hammer it home, then change the standard when the Pirates actually do what you want. Teams with budgets have to make decisions about where to best spend their money. Spending big money on a closer just isn't smart, and you're better off going cheap on the closer and spending your limited resources elsewhere on positions where the money could be more efficiently used.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:32 pm

KennyTheKangaroo wrote:
Malkamaniac wrote:Agree with this, and I think the actual trade deadline moves did more damage to the actual team than helped in the mental department. Casey was apparently well liked, Lincoln looked like he was the answer there and it did nothing but mess with the psyche.


Kenny the kangaroo maintains that one of the biggest reasons why the pirates were sent into a downward spiral after the trade deadline is kevin correia's pouting about losing his roation spot. Hurdle/Management tried to appease that turd by creating that goofball 6 man rotation, and that 6 man rotation sent everything off the track. The bullpen was never able to find its groove without lincoln and being short a reliever thanks to whiner correia.


The move they had to make was to release Bedard. They didn't do it.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:33 pm

offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.


That's cool. There's nothing forcing you to root for the Pirates or chide people for caring about them.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby offsides on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:02 pm

Rocco wrote:
offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.


That's cool. There's nothing forcing you to root for the Pirates or chide people for caring about them.


If I somehow offended you or anyone else, I am sorry. Didn't mean to chide anyone, just stating my opinion like everyone else here.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby MWB on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:25 pm

offsides wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
offsides wrote:All the positive posts about this team is really amusing. Only thing I remeber is the biggest collapse in the history of MLB. Before I get sucked in again by this team, they are going to have to perform at a level they haven't for 20 years. They still seem to me like nothing more than a farm system for the large market teams.

I dont understand how you can remember the collapse and still say they are a feeder team. They were unquestionably competitive last season.


Didn't we just feed a very good closer to a large market team? And noone is sure what we got in return. As for being competitive, maybe for half the season but, finishing 10th out of 16 might not qualify as competitive. The first part of a season means little and when it came time to compete or go home, they choose to go home.


This doesn't seem like a salary dump to me. The Pirates may realize they had a commodity that is incredibly volatile and they could hang onto him, hope he's great another year, and watch someone overpay him the following year. Or they could deal him now for decent value. In a vacuum it's a smart baseball decision. Relievers simply aren't consistently great.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby ulf on Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:43 pm

There's a very good chance Hammers walk numbers catch up to him by July. If so, we could probably get a bucket of balls for him.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Mr. Colby on Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:13 pm

Paying big money for a closer is just dumb, especially if you're a small market team that must be as cost-effective as possible to succeed.

You're not going to get big name players for a 7 million dollar closer with 1 year left on his deal that everyone knows you have to trade. The sooner people accept that, the sooner they can feel better about the return. Let's not forget, the guy only threw 59 innings last year. 7 million dollars for 59 innings in Pittsburgh is just idiotic.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Rocco on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:21 am

When did Dejan decide to become arch-troll of the Pittsburgh media? Was it around the time he said the Pens players held a secret meeting that everyone denied, or was it sooner?
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:31 am

It seems he has ticked off the complete Pirate blogger universe.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:33 am

Rocco wrote:When did Dejan decide to become arch-troll of the Pittsburgh media? Was it around the time he said the Pens players held a secret meeting that everyone denied, or was it sooner?


As soon as he started being a columnist.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby Fire0nice228 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:36 am



Jus' sayin ;)
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby beerman on Fri Dec 28, 2012 8:55 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:It seems he has ticked off the complete Pirate blogger universe.


His quality of writing has sunk below anything those blogs could put out there.
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Re: Official 2012-13 Pirates Off-Season Thread

Postby pfim on Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:32 am

Rocco wrote:When did Dejan decide to become arch-troll of the Pittsburgh media? Was it around the time he said the Pens players held a secret meeting that everyone denied, or was it sooner?


He's un-readable.
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