FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby PghSkins on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:24 pm

newarenanow wrote:I know not all stories will be like that, but IMO, sometimes if you want to find a job and make money, it may be in a field you do not love (there are not many jobs for history, music, etc degrees) and you may have to take your lumps early and live with debt for a few years. And yes, you do have to go above and beyond getting a college degree if you truly want to be successful.

Just my thoughts.


I think that's what many (maybe not most, but the vocal ones referenced here) College grads don't get, and it's not limited to Millennials. I'm an X-er and lots of us thought we were going to get hired right out of college, too. It's not all the students' fault, though. Part of it is the sales job colleges do when recruiting. It's to their benefit to put a gloss on how many of their students get hired, go to good grad schools, etc.

Part of it is also parents not telling them (or not realizing) what it's going to be like when they get out of college. Rest assured that my kids will know that I worked retail for a year out of college, then moved away and got a temp job with benefits 100% on me, before being hired permanently and getting my employer to pay for my MBA, which I did at night. They will always have a home here (concerns me about my oldest) but they better be woikin', even at jobs they think are beneath them just because they have a sheepskin.

I think a lot of kids entering college view college itself as "taking your lumps." It's not- it's preparing you to take your lumps in your chosen field.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby ulf on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:38 pm

bhaw wrote:
ulf wrote:Yes, I didn't mean it literally.


Certain people in this thread like to pick apart semantics, so I figured I'd clarify for you (and me) ;)

Haha very true. Also, never got to try Pizza Bianco, flight in pittsburgh got delayed, made me miss my flight from Charlotte to Phoenix and had to drive straight to Flagstaff because of that.. Didn't spend any time in Phoenix, i was bummed.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:48 pm

Is this really a surprise in a time where, during the last four years, archaic legislation like the Espionage Act has been used to charge and detain more people than...well...all other administrations combined? How about, as PB mentioned, the latest National Defense Authorization Act? Or any number of executive orders or privileges that have been used in the name of secrecy and power, especially post-9/11?

Executive power is at an all-time high (along with the rest of the government)....that's not good medicine no matter where you stand.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:50 pm

shafnutz05 wrote:Is this really a surprise in a time where, during the last four years, archaic legislation like the Espionage Act has been used to charge and detain more people than...well...all other administrations combined? How about, as PB mentioned, the latest National Defense Authorization Act? Or any number of executive orders or privileges that have been used in the name of secrecy and power, especially post-9/11?

Executive power is at an all-time high (along with the rest of the government)....that's not good medicine no matter where you stand.


:thumb:
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:06 pm

bhaw wrote:
TheHammer24 wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:So that's it? There's no work problem? We have like 85% of college grads moving in back with their parents because they can't find a job, 1/3 doesn't believe in college education anymore, and 50% don't believe they will ever own a house. It's a real crisis from where I'm looking. But if a couple of you found jobs, that's fantastic.

Yeah, huge pet peeve. Take a systemic issue, provide an anecdotal counter example, claim to have solved the problem.


I don't think the country is in great shape by any means. But the whole "there are no jobs for college grads" mantra is what is the anectodal nonsense. There are plenty of jobs. We aren't in any kind of boom, which means to get them you have to work harder and put yourself above the others.

Are you telling me that if you got a 3.8 in a desirable degree and bolstered your resume with work during college and/or internships and/or club leadership roles in school that you are going to have as tough a time finding a job?

I'm not speaking to that issue. I'm speaking to the personal anecdote problem-solving that occurs across issues. Obviously there are a lot more variable in these posters' situations than "working hard." It's a common fallacy to take another's problem, isolate that single variable, examine it from your experience (keeping all of your variables), and determine a solution. Sometimes you're correct, but more often you're wrong. Take my experience. I worked very hard in undergrad, studied hard for the LSAT and ended up with money to go to a a top 15 law school. Great for me, but how horrible would advice to "go work hard for the LSAT and go to law school be"? Yet, that's exactly what Mac and a few others are doing. Each situation is different and there are many variables at play beyond the one you ascribe to your success.

But to address your point head on, there is a huge over-investment in higher education. This is caused by immaturity and uneducated decisions. But it's also caused by a culture that preaches "you can be anything you want" from ages 0-18, then confronts immature teenagers with a $150,0000 decision that will affect the rest of their life---by controlling their career and saddling them with debt.

The issue is there is no single issue. Some jobless are lazy, some feel entitled. Others got a raw deal. Some are subject to racial baises. Still more lost their job because of no fault of their own. To attach a single problem and prescribe a single solution---blam the lazy people---is as misguided as OWS---blame the banks and the government.

Like most systemic issues, this one is multi-faceted and can only be "solved" by a discussion that reaches beyond first-level thinking.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:13 pm

Those are all fair points.

But to this point:
I'm speaking to the personal anecdote problem-solving that occurs across issues.


Of course it happens. You can't speak theoretically about everything. Saying "we need to solve this huge issue" is one thing... showing how people do it in real life is another. Not giving specific examples or advice it what leaves everything in idea stage, which is just as useless as talking about one specific point.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby TheHammer24 on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:30 pm

bhaw wrote:Those are all fair points.

But to this point:
I'm speaking to the personal anecdote problem-solving that occurs across issues.


Of course it happens. You can't speak theoretically about everything. Saying "we need to solve this huge issue" is one thing... showing how people do it in real life is another. Not giving specific examples or advice it what leaves everything in idea stage, which is just as useless as talking about one specific point.

Agreed. And how boring would 12,000 posts of "this is a more complicated issue than you suggest" be? I'm lashing out at the anecdote + righteous declaration that it can solve the problem. But maybe I'm reading too far into the post. Maybe all Mac is saying is "following my experience" can alleviate the problem, but it comes off differently in the message board context.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:43 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
bhaw wrote:Those are all fair points.

But to this point:
I'm speaking to the personal anecdote problem-solving that occurs across issues.


Of course it happens. You can't speak theoretically about everything. Saying "we need to solve this huge issue" is one thing... showing how people do it in real life is another. Not giving specific examples or advice it what leaves everything in idea stage, which is just as useless as talking about one specific point.

Agreed. And how boring would 12,000 posts of "this is a more complicated issue than you suggest" be? I'm lashing out at the anecdote + righteous declaration that it can solve the problem. But maybe I'm reading too far into the post. Maybe all Mac is saying is "following my experience" can alleviate the problem, but it comes off differently in the message board context.


It can't work 100% of the time. That's what set mac apart from those who didn't do what he did (if everyone did what he did, that would be the standard, and mac would have had to done even more to get ahead). You have to accept that no matter what system is in place or what we do to "fix" it, there is always going to be a large % of people who don't want to do what it takes to get ahead. They either can't do it or won't do it or lack the foresight to see what "it" is.

What I take from Mac's story is that he COULD have just given in to the worse job and gotten by and done just enough to stay there. Instead he did what others in his same position weren't willing to do and did (whatever he did) better to get to the next level where he is now.

IMO, there will always be a systematic issue. There is no utopia where everything is right for everyone. There won't ever (nor should there ever) be a system where you don't have to work harder or be more talented or be smarter than others to elevate yourself. In the current system, if you take college seriously as a stepping stone to your career, you will turn out fine (I'd say 95 times out of 100). But if you prioritize partying over studying, sitting by the pool for the summer over working, and just getting by over leading your class, you are going to be thrown to the wolves.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 1:59 pm

bhaw wrote:
doublem wrote:
bhaw wrote:Going to say this again because it still annoys me:

Part of OWS was about how there are no jobs for people just out of college... I have needed 0-2 years experience people for a job that pays $60k on target in downtown Phoenix with direct access to nearby buses (1 block away) and the light rail (3 blocks away). Full benefits and a matching 401k. I was supposed to hire up to 12 for our Jan 14th training class. Guess how many I got? 2. And I only got 4 or 5 people in for interviews.

The problem is the college grads want the jobs to come to them and don't want to work for their money. Stop whining and look for the jobs... they are out there. Yes, you will actually have to put in a solid work day every day if you want to make more than you can at McDonalds. But I guess it's easier to whine while on daddy's dime than to put in any time finding work.

/rant


I don't think that's a fair statement at all.




What part? I've interviewed these people. Some of them work for me. I can say with certainty this is their mindset. Even the ones I hire expect to be promoted for being sub-standard to mediocre at their jobs.

Look up the term millennials. I'm technically one of them.


just because it happened to you doesn't make it widespread. there are plenty of college grads that would certainly take those jobs. there was a new york times piece a few days ago about recent grads that are homeless.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:05 pm

Why are they homeless? I can show you someone who was homeless that is now famous. An article saying someone went from college grad to homeless means nothing... what did they major in? what were their GPAs? What and how many jobs did they apply for? Did they turn down jobs that they didn't like? What did they do with their free time in college? Did they do internships? Did they work summers? When did they start their job search? Did they look for out of state opportunities? What was their financial situation?
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:07 pm

anyways that's really not even the topic of the post to begin with, the post is about the gov't once again using it's power to smash dissent which everyone should be worried about living in a "free" country.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:10 pm

bhaw wrote:Why are they homeless? I can show you someone who was homeless that is now famous. An article saying someone went from college grad to homeless means nothing... what did they major in? what were their GPAs? What and how many jobs did they apply for? Did they turn down jobs that they didn't like? What did they do with their free time in college? Did they do internships? Did they work summers? When did they start their job search? Did they look for out of state opportunities? What was their financial situation?


does that even matter? I don't think any reason is a good one.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:15 pm

doublem wrote:
bhaw wrote:Why are they homeless? I can show you someone who was homeless that is now famous. An article saying someone went from college grad to homeless means nothing... what did they major in? what were their GPAs? What and how many jobs did they apply for? Did they turn down jobs that they didn't like? What did they do with their free time in college? Did they do internships? Did they work summers? When did they start their job search? Did they look for out of state opportunities? What was their financial situation?


does that even matter? I don't think any reason is a good one.


Really? I'd ask you to explain that comment, but it's ridiculous. Of course it matters. There is no "good" reason for someone to be homeless but I certainly see it being important in explaining what happened. If they graduated with 2.2 GPA, started looking for jobs 6 months after school because they wanted to "party it up" before entering the real world, applied to 5 jobs they weren't qualified for and turned down a manual labor job their friend offered because it was "beneath them," it certainly explains their situation, does it not?
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:23 pm

doublem wrote:anyways that's really not even the topic of the post to begin with, the post is about the gov't once again using it's power to smash dissent which everyone should be worried about living in a "free" country.


If nothing else, I will agree with you here :thumb:

I'd use slightly less rhetoric, but there is way too much over-governing going on.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:28 pm

bhaw wrote:
doublem wrote:
bhaw wrote:Why are they homeless? I can show you someone who was homeless that is now famous. An article saying someone went from college grad to homeless means nothing... what did they major in? what were their GPAs? What and how many jobs did they apply for? Did they turn down jobs that they didn't like? What did they do with their free time in college? Did they do internships? Did they work summers? When did they start their job search? Did they look for out of state opportunities? What was their financial situation?


does that even matter? I don't think any reason is a good one.


Really? I'd ask you to explain that comment, but it's ridiculous. Of course it matters. There is no "good" reason for someone to be homeless but I certainly see it being important in explaining what happened. If they graduated with 2.2 GPA, started looking for jobs 6 months after school because they wanted to "party it up" before entering the real world, applied to 5 jobs they weren't qualified for and turned down a manual labor job their friend offered because it was "beneath them," it certainly explains their situation, does it not?


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/us/si ... d=all&_r=0

I think your position that young people are "lazy" is vastly overstated. sure some are but I think it's the same amount that it's always been.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:42 pm

Article aside, you are the second person who has quoted me as saying people are "lazy." If you do a search, me just typing it right now is the first time I've used the word lazy in an NHR thread since Nov 2011. I certainly haven't called anyone lazy or said that is the issue. I've said "entitled" and "not willing to put in the work" and things to that effect. There is a distinct difference. Lazy means you don't do jack - I ignore this subset of people because if you are "lazy" you will get nothing. What I've said is to the effect of people doing mediocre work (whether in school or on the job) and expect the same as those doing extraordinary work.

"Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle."
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:45 pm

ok entitled, I still think it's probably what's it's always been.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:03 pm

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manhattan/bombmaking_in_the_village_LoRDqNzP02SDZyfC1pLVXN

The privileged daughter of a prominent city doctor, and her boyfriend — a Harvard grad and Occupy Wall Street activist — have been busted for allegedly having a cache of weapons and a bombmaking explosive in their Greenwich Village apartment.

:scared:
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:09 pm

The fact that they are OWS supporters is irrelevant (at this point), like a lot of the original article in the OP.

But this shows how stupid some smart people are. They had something called "The Terrorist Encyclopedia" in their apartment? Really?
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby columbia on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:15 pm

Hmmm...now I'm wondering about that copy of the Anarchists Cookbook I bought at a thrift store a long time ago.

Maybe they'll kick down my door?
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 31, 2012 3:19 pm

columbia wrote:Hmmm...now I'm wondering about that copy of the Anarchists Cookbook I bought at a thrift store a long time ago.

Maybe they'll kick down my door?


Do you have anarchists in your freezer that you plan on cooking? If so, ditch it!
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby bh on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:12 pm

doublem wrote:anyways that's really not even the topic of the post to begin with, the post is about the gov't once again using it's power to smash dissent which everyone should be worried about living in a "free" country.
:thumb: It doesn't seem that many care about that. People are too busy critiquing the OWS movement.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby ulf on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:15 pm

bh wrote:
doublem wrote:anyways that's really not even the topic of the post to begin with, the post is about the gov't once again using it's power to smash dissent which everyone should be worried about living in a "free" country.
:thumb: It doesn't seem that many care about that. People are too busy critiquing the OWS movement.

I think it's because everyone agrees with that point.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:34 pm

Some people here do not seem to care when organizations with whom they disagree *cough* NRA *cough* are threatened by government officials.
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Re: FBI coordinated crackdown of Occupy

Postby doublem on Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:34 pm

I have read numerous people ( not here ) that have no problem with that and others.
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