Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Rylan on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:53 pm

Alexi Kovalev
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby thepittman on Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:54 pm

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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby BigMcK on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:02 pm

Kip Miller.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:04 pm

Sidney Crosby with a concussion :pop:
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Jan 07, 2013 8:53 pm

1984-1985 #7 Rod Buskas

Seriously, until Ryan Whitney... No Penguin was blamed more than Rod for Penguins losses.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Dan H on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:01 pm

You're right, I forgot about Omelette. He's definitely in there somewhere around 2006. I can't remember if MAF was ever the leading whipping boy, although he's always been pretty high on the abuse list here. I wasn't on the board before about 2004 or so (when it was "the old board"), so I don't know who the LGP whipping boy was before then.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:11 pm

joopen wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:I think its funny that everyone assumes the Pens will buy out Paul Martin (or anyone really)... The Pens are a 'break even' team who have openly said they have to get to atleast the second round to turn a meaningful profit. These are real dollars coming out of Mario and Burkles pocket and I don't believe that there is a whole ton of extra flying around like the Rangers or others have..


If the cap was set to the original $60M that was being floated, he would have almost had to have been bought out. At $64.3M, the Pens have $11M to fill a roster next year with roughly 8 players instead of only having $7M. I think he stays.


It's not next season that is the issue, it's after next season. Again, I'm not sure how they've set it up. If any team does a buyout, does it have to be done before the start of next season? Can it wait till after next season? That will all play a part in it.

After next season there's quite a few salary issues that will be addressed. Malkin, Letang, Vokoun, Orpik, Niskanen, Engelland, Kunitz, Glass, McIntyre and Despres are all FAs. I'm sure the Penguins will not necessarily sign or even attempt to sign all of those players, but it could affect the cap significantly.

I think it's a safe assumption that Malkin will re-sign for a similar contract unless he decides he wants to leave to get more money. Letang is the biggest wildcard of the bunch. He makes $3.5M now, but what will his value be by then? What will the market value be? It's vague, but he could garner anywhere from $5M to $7M on the open market(always giving way to teams willing to overpay). If Despres pans out the way everyone will think, it's still vague, but he could be a $1.5M to $2M a year player depending on the market. Between all of those players, some costing less, some costing more, I think it's safe to say the spending could increase around $5M. That's not significant, but Martin's salary would make room for that will keeping space free to fill other holes.

Who really knows. I'd like to see Martin get bought out, but I'm also intrigued to see what he can prove this year. I hate to give in to any of these unsubstantiated Gonchar rumors, but I wouldn't be opposed to a Martin/Gonchar swap. I mean, Gonchar can't really be any worse defensively than Martin has.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:12 pm

Yes he can, and is.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:15 pm

Do people who think Gonchar is better defensively than Martin even watch the 2009-2010 season?
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:18 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Do people who think Gonchar is better defensively than Martin even watch the 2009-2010 season?


Seriously? Hockey fans, largely, have eroded "what have you done for me lately?" down to "what did you do for me yesterday?" You can't expect much from your inquiry...

Spoiler:
I can't tell if I miss this part of it or not...
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:19 pm

It's more in jest, but I just can't see how people easily forget how bad Gonchar was.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:25 pm

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/consol ... 17&lang=en

I'll play along. Scroll to 3:05 of this video. Gonchar can't stop this easy odd-man rush.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:29 pm

Holy **** that's bad. Am I wrong in saying some of us on this board could have played that better?
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:07 pm

pcm wrote:Martin admits he had a horrible year.


Which is one reason why I think he'll be fine. I'm not worried about him, tbh. He's built his career on being professional, quiet, reliable, and not flashy. He knows he has to prove something to Ray--nevermind us--and to himself. The guy was named to the 2010 U.S. Olympic team but couldn't participate because of a broken arm. It's not like Olympic-caliber D-men grow on trees.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:09 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:1984-1985 #7 Rod Buskas

Seriously, until Ryan Whitney... No Penguin was blamed more than Rod for Penguins losses.



I think it's Rod Buskas' birthday, according to Empty Netters.

And yes, Rod Buskas was a regular in the fans' stockade.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Dan H on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:14 pm

Was that a 4-on-1? Gonch didn't do much, but I'm pretty sure almost any of us on the board would have looked silly more than half the time going 1-on-4 against NHL players. Sometimes mostly by luck the defender looks good there, but the odds are against you in that situation. There are just too many passing lanes to take away all of them. What do you do? Pressure the puck carrier? He passes it across the ice to set up the shot on an open net. Collapse to the low crease? Same result. Pick a man on the far side to cover? The puck carrier skates right in on the goalie, or draws him to one side and flips the puck across to one of the two uncovered guys for a tap-in. In similar situations (at a much lower level of hockey, of course) I sometimes lay out and try to take away the cross-ice pass along the ice with my stick while trying to make the puck carrier skate around my body to reach the net, but more often than not good players will still make me look silly. Sure, maybe that would have been better than what Gonch did, because sometimes the puck carrier will misfire a saucer pass or shoot the puck right at the goalie. But none of your options are good in that situation.

Gonch has fallen off defensively over the past few years and probably has lots of tape in which he misplays easier situations. But maybe you were doing a tongue-in-cheek thing when you called it an easy odd man break?
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:15 pm

Lt. Dish wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:1984-1985 #7 Rod Buskas

Seriously, until Ryan Whitney... No Penguin was blamed more than Rod for Penguins losses.



I think it's Rod Buskas' birthday, according to Empty Netters.

And yes, Rod Buskas was a regular in the fans' stockade.


Can either of you shed a little more light on this please? If memory allows, what was it that made fans dislike him? Same thing as Stackhouse? Hatcher? Whitney? I wouldn't necessarily guess so because Buskas wasn't an offensive defenseman, but when there's a pattern like that, you take a shot...
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:20 pm

Dan H wrote:Was that a 4-on-1? Gonch didn't do much, but I'm pretty sure almost any of us on the board would have looked silly more than half the time going 1-on-4 against NHL players. Sometimes mostly by luck the defender looks good there, but the odds are against you in that situation. There are just too many passing lanes to take away all of them. What do you do? Pressure the puck carrier? He passes it across the ice to set up the shot on an open net. Collapse to the low crease? Same result. Pick a man on the far side to cover? The puck carrier skates right in on the goalie, or draws him to one side and flips the puck across to one of the two uncovered guys for a tap-in. In similar situations (at a much lower level of hockey, of course) I sometimes lay out and try to take away the cross-ice pass along the ice with my stick while trying to make the puck carrier skate around my body to reach the net, but more often than not good players will still make me look silly. Sure, maybe that would have been better than what Gonch did, because sometimes the puck carrier will misfire a saucer pass or shoot the puck right at the goalie. But none of your options are good in that situation.

Gonch has fallen off defensively over the past few years and probably has lots of tape in which he misplays easier situations. But maybe you were doing a tongue-in-cheek thing when you called it an easy odd man break?


Yeah, Dan, I'm sorry to say your analysis of the situation was in vain. The proper thing to do there is skate back as fast as you can and knock the net off...5 on 4 is way better than 4 on 1 :lol: :P

Mrandall and I were just razzing...

If you want to make serious AND relevant analysis, just before that in the same video, Gonchar comes off the bench on the PK and doesn't pick up the weakside guy streaking up the middle which leads to a breakaway...you see Gonchar's eyes affixed to the puck as if it were offering free vodka for life by winning the staring contest...
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:40 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Do people who think Gonchar is better defensively than Martin even watch the 2009-2010 season?


No, well at least I don't. I just think he's no worse than Martin has been.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:43 pm

mikey287 wrote:
Lt. Dish wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:1984-1985 #7 Rod Buskas

Seriously, until Ryan Whitney... No Penguin was blamed more than Rod for Penguins losses.



I think it's Rod Buskas' birthday, according to Empty Netters.

And yes, Rod Buskas was a regular in the fans' stockade.


Can either of you shed a little more light on this please? If memory allows, what was it that made fans dislike him? Same thing as Stackhouse? Hatcher? Whitney? I wouldn't necessarily guess so because Buskas wasn't an offensive defenseman, but when there's a pattern like that, you take a shot...


I'll just speak for myself and the fans in my family. We didn't dislike him because he didn't produce offensively; he wasn't an offensive D-man and it would've been silly to expect him to be (his career high goals was 3). I remember him just being incredibly frustrating, and the reason was simple: An incredible lack of discipline. It seemed he was undisciplined at the worst possible times (not that there's a great time to be undisciplined). You know how it seems some D-men are often looking for the next big hit instead of playing the position? I recall him looking for the next fight instead. That's my recollection, anyway.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 10:59 pm

Thank you, kindly.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Lt. Dish on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:02 pm

mikey287 wrote:Thank you, kindly.


No, thank you. I learn much from your posts.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby crush_lives_723 on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:03 pm

I blame all of the worlds problems on Paul Martin because his name is Paul Martin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G7GiUlqr_w
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby Dan H on Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:53 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yeah, Dan, I'm sorry to say your analysis of the situation was in vain. The proper thing to do there is skate back as fast as you can and knock the net off...5 on 4 is way better than 4 on 1 :lol: :P

Mrandall and I were just razzing...

If you want to make serious AND relevant analysis, just before that in the same video, Gonchar comes off the bench on the PK and doesn't pick up the weakside guy streaking up the middle which leads to a breakaway...you see Gonchar's eyes affixed to the puck as if it were offering free vodka for life by winning the staring contest...

That's what I get for not reading the thread more carefully. The tongue in cheek should have been pretty obvious.
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Re: Why the bashing of Martin before the season even starts?

Postby DesertPenguin on Tue Jan 08, 2013 1:52 am

Martin was bad last season. There, got that out of the way.

He is, however, a talented player, and is capable of bouncing back. His trade value now is low anyway, and after dealing Michalek we don't have an abundance of guys ready to jump into the top 4 of a cup contender, during a shortened season no less. Whether you want him to regain his form and play out his contract as a Pen, or you want him traded away by the deadline, either way you should be rooting for him to succeed right now to regain some of that value he had when we signed him.

Paul Martin gets between now and the trade deadline to determine his future, and until that day comes, I am rooting for him.
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