Baseball hall of fame adds...

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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:20 pm

Wins are a crappy stat, lowest career ERA out of all four. I don't know if I'd say he's #1 for sure, but I wouldn't dismiss him as #4 for sure either. Clemens 6 Cy Youngs and 4500+ Ks are tough to beat as well.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby columbia on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:42 pm

ulf wrote:Wins are a crappy stat, lowest career ERA out of all four. I don't know if I'd say he's #1 for sure, but I wouldn't dismiss him as #4 for sure either. Clemens 6 Cy Youngs and 4500+ Ks are tough to beat as well.


Led the league in ERA 5 of 7 years....It was just crazy.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 8:42 pm

Johnson has 203 more Ks than Clemens, and Clemens pitched 2 more years than Johnson. Clemens had a better career ERA by .17. Johnson's WHIP is better by .002. Johnson averaged 2 more K/9 (Clemens had 8.6, Johnson had 10.6). Johnson's BAA was .196, while Clemens' was .207.

Really, you can't go wrong with either.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MWB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:23 pm

Clemens and Johnson were both more dominant than Maddux in terms of being able to shut teams down on their own. Pedro was awesome over a shorter period of time. If it was to win one game, I'd go with Clemens or Johnson.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MWB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:31 pm

joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:38 pm

I would have said Al Martin but those guys are alright too
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:38 pm

MWB wrote:
joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.


But, by overall, I think he's talking about achievements in the field as well as in the batter's box, so I don't see how it's not Griffey then everybody else. 10 Gold Gloves.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:39 pm

Bonds without a doubt.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby KG on Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:50 pm

MWB wrote:
columbia wrote:
MWB wrote:Mike Piazza seems to exemplify exactly what is wrong with HoF voting. He's a no doubt HoFer. Yet there are some whispers about steroid use. No smoking gun, no admission, no first hand account, no investigation. But some decide there's a chance he did, so he's out.


That was his first time on the ballot....he'll get in.


Think he eventually will. It'll just be a lot longer than it should be.


I figured Biggio and Piazza would get in. I agree with you regarding Piazza. It seems like the voters are waiting for the other shoe to drop on Piazza and they don't want to go through the headache of voting him in to find out he may have done juice.

The whole situation is strange....
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MWB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:20 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
MWB wrote:
joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.


But, by overall, I think he's talking about achievements in the field as well as in the batter's box, so I don't see how it's not Griffey then everybody else. 10 Gold Gloves.


The guys I listed are all very good to great defensive players.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MRandall25 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:23 pm

MWB wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
MWB wrote:
joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.


But, by overall, I think he's talking about achievements in the field as well as in the batter's box, so I don't see how it's not Griffey then everybody else. 10 Gold Gloves.


The guys I listed are all very good to great defensive players.


I don't necessarily associate A-Rod with good fielding, but to each his own.

The only one I could really see being argued as close to Griffey in the field is Bonds, if only because he has 8 GGs as opposed to Griffey's 10. I feel like it would be a different story if they both played the same position in the same league.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:27 pm

Yeah Bonds has 8 gold gloves, HR records, stupid OBP numbers, 400+ steals, there's a good argument for best of all time. Not considering steroids.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MWB on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:35 pm

Gold gloves are a bad indicator of good defense because they're often a popularity contest. A-rod would lose to Vizquel most years because he was known as a defensive wizard. Rodriguez was a very, very good shortstop. I hate him, but his all-around play for a similar time period to Griffey's is at least on par. And Bonds, yes, was better than both.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby joopen on Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:57 pm

MWB wrote:
joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.

A-rod and Pujols may be as good if not better at bat but I feel Griffey offered more defensively and on the bases. Bonds is there all around but has a lot of clouds around him that Griffey does not
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:01 am

Did people watch bonds before 2000? Griffey didn't offer more on the bases.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby joopen on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:03 am

ulf wrote:Did people watch bonds before 2000? Griffey didn't offer more on the bases.

You mean after he took too manny roids to be agile?
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:07 am

joopen wrote:
ulf wrote:Did people watch bonds before 2000? Griffey didn't offer more on the bases.

You mean after he took too manny roids to be agile?

Nope, after he became the only member of the 400-400 club. And 500-500. And 600-500. And 700-500..
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby joopen on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:10 am

ulf wrote:
joopen wrote:
ulf wrote:Did people watch bonds before 2000? Griffey didn't offer more on the bases.

You mean after he took too manny roids to be agile?

Nope, after he became the only member of the 400-400 club. And 500-500. And 600-500. And 700-500..

Only one number is going up in those stats and its not the stolen bases. If he weren't marred by steroids then I would say Bonds is the better player. He has too many black clouds
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby columbia on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:11 am

The 600-500 is where I draw the line on credibility.
I'm guessing in the high 500s, if he hadn't juiced.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:19 am

joopen wrote:
ulf wrote:
joopen wrote:
ulf wrote:Did people watch bonds before 2000? Griffey didn't offer more on the bases.

You mean after he took too manny roids to be agile?

Nope, after he became the only member of the 400-400 club. And 500-500. And 600-500. And 700-500..

Only one number is going up in those stats and its not the stolen bases. If he weren't marred by steroids then I would say Bonds is the better player. He has too many black clouds

I said last page this is "not considering steroids."
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby ulf on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:22 am

columbia wrote:The 600-500 is where I draw the line on credibility.
I'm guessing in the high 500s, if he hadn't juiced.

And those are still ridiculous numbers. Over 100 more steals than anyone with 500 homers.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby columbia on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:24 am

Sure.

That's why it's so absurd that he cheated.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:25 am

But Bonds didn't hit the 500 homerun mark until 2001, when the roids surely would have been kicking in.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby MWB on Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:43 am

joopen wrote:
MWB wrote:
joopen wrote:Who was the best overall player of the last 20 years? I'll say without a doubt in my mind it was Griffey Jr.

Who was the best pitcher of the last 20 years? Thats a harder discussion.


A-rod, Pujols, and Bonds would all be hard to discount.

A-rod and Pujols may be as good if not better at bat but I feel Griffey offered more defensively and on the bases. Bonds is there all around but has a lot of clouds around him that Griffey does not


Griffey was better defensively, but not on the bases. Arod has 318 steals in just over 2500 games. Griffey had 184 steals in over 2600 games. I think since Arod has fallen so much and is rightfully hated, people forget how amazing he once was. It's also possible (depending on what the truth really is) that Arod had his best years pre-steroids.

As for Bonds, he had more steals with the Pirates than Griffey had in his career, by almost 50.
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Re: Baseball hall of fame adds...

Postby Rylan on Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:52 am

Griffey was the man. His swing was amazing
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