Lance Armstrong

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Puffymuffin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:16 pm

tifosi77 wrote:The athlete's job is to cheat. The governing body's job is to catch them. That's how it works.


Wow... :shock:
Puffymuffin
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,357
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 12:33 pm

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:18 pm

I guess this means the citizen's job is to evade taxes. And many people would agree with that.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Froggy on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:30 pm

part of me thinks that on some level, the fact that literally all of the top guys were also cheating makes it a level playing field and makes his wins at least a small part legit., he also did great things with his fame. So yeah, he cheated, but I don't think he's the devil people are making him out to be.

Plus I have a hard time getting upset over a sport I have no interest in
Froggy
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,711
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 2:40 pm
Location: http://DrunkInAGraveyard.com

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Eismann on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:50 pm

He's a buttbake who raised money for good. Life's full of nonlinear things that don't need to be congruent. When the subject of the donations comes up, yay. When the subject of his cheating and amazing capacity for sustained lying comes up, then a fart in his face.
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,684
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Less obnoxious, brainless rehab addict chick

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 pm

Froggy wrote:Plus I have a hard time getting upset over a sport I have no interest in


This is how I feel. I don't really care. I don't know why people got so excited over a cyclist. Great that he was able to raise all that money though.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,217
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:01 pm

We need more people pointing out how little they care.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby largegarlic on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:06 pm

I'm ambivalent about Armstrong. My dad died a couple months ago after having cancer for 10 years, and I know Armstrong's story and the whole Livestrong "movement" were of tremendous help to my dad psychologically. I can imagine that many other cancer patients were inspired by Armstrong too. For this reason, I'm kind of disappointed that the whole Armstrong image is being destroyed.

On the other hand, he did cheat, repeatedly lie about it, and I've heard that while Livestrong has raised a ton of money for cancer research, they're one of those charities that doesn't do the best job of devoting the maximum percentage of donations to the cause they're supporting.
largegarlic
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,752
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 7:56 pm

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:12 pm

I think we need more people posting snide comments (ironically) about others' decision to post their comments.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,217
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:25 pm

Gaucho wrote:The athlete's job is to cheat?

Puffymuffin wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:The athlete's job is to cheat. The governing body's job is to catch them. That's how it works.


Wow... :shock:

Yes. That's why sports have officials.

I really don't think this is really that controversial of a position.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,392
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:30 pm

I think it's a sad position. To borrow a line from EPP: What happend to people being responsible for their own actions?
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby JS© on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Froggy wrote:part of me thinks that on some level, the fact that literally all of the top guys were also cheating...


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_a ... _de_France

I'm not saying everybody in the race cheated, but almost every relevant racer cheated over the last 15 years.
JS©
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,550
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:52 am
Location: hooray for me

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:34 pm

Gaucho wrote:I think it's a sad position. To borrow a line from EPP: What happend to people being responsible for their own actions?


Cheat to win :pop:
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,383
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby tifosi77 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:48 pm

Gaucho wrote:I think it's a sad position. To borrow a line from EPP: What happend to people being responsible for their own actions?

I spent a year involved with professional motor racing in this country, and have friends that have gone on to work with pro teams in the big four sports in this country (football, hockey, baseball and basketball). The notion that athletes don't cheat or that cheaters are the exception is almost quaint to me. It's like "Aw, how cute...... 'fair play'....."

I don't make a value judgment, it is what it is. So I generally don't get up in arms over cheaters that much, provided they simply acknowledge their cheatery ways when caught. That's why this fuss over Armstrong is so bemusing to me; he was never caught, so I don't care how huffy he ever got.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,392
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:58 pm

Gotcha. Sorry, it seemed to me you approved of cheating, but you are in fact only indifferent.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Shyster on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:20 pm

tifosi77 wrote:I spent a year involved with professional motor racing in this country, and have friends that have gone on to work with pro teams in the big four sports in this country (football, hockey, baseball and basketball). The notion that athletes don't cheat or that cheaters are the exception is almost quaint to me. It's like "Aw, how cute...... 'fair play'....."

I remember an article years ago in either Car and Driver or Road & Track that discussed the difference between cheating and cheatin’ in auto racing. Cheating is flagrant rule violations. Cheatin’ is taking the rules and finding any loopholes you can exploit. For example, years ago the Trans-Am series required the race cars to run car bodies as they came from the factory. But the rules didn't say anything about dipping car bodies in acid to remove metal and make them lighter, which is what the Penske team did. Smokey Yunick was famous for figuring out ways to add extra fuel capacity to his NASCAR racers. For example, NASCAR specified how big a fuel tank could be, but Yunick noticed the rules didn’t say anything about fuel lines, so he created a two-inch diameter fuel line that was 11 feet long and held five extra gallons of gas. I also remember a story that NASCAR’s tech inspectors once went over one of his cars and drained every single drop of fuel out of everything they could see. Satisfied that the car wasn’t carrying any extra gas, they turned it back over. Yunick hopped in, started it up, and drove the “bone dry” car back to the garage.
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,218
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:23 pm

Wouldn't "finding a loophole" imply that you are in fact not violating the rules?
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:50 pm

Gaucho wrote:Wouldn't "finding a loophole" imply that you are in fact not violating the rules?


EDIT: wrong analogy.
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,383
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Shyster on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:12 pm

Gaucho wrote:Wouldn't "finding a loophole" imply that you are in fact not violating the rules?

It would depend on whether you draw a distinction between the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. As a lawyer, I certainly draw that distinction. :)
Shyster
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,218
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:32 pm
Location: Here and there

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby JS© on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:20 pm

Shyster wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I spent a year involved with professional motor racing in this country, and have friends that have gone on to work with pro teams in the big four sports in this country (football, hockey, baseball and basketball). The notion that athletes don't cheat or that cheaters are the exception is almost quaint to me. It's like "Aw, how cute...... 'fair play'....."

I remember an article years ago in either Car and Driver or Road & Track that discussed the difference between cheating and cheatin’ in auto racing. Cheating is flagrant rule violations. Cheatin’ is taking the rules and finding any loopholes you can exploit. For example, years ago the Trans-Am series required the race cars to run car bodies as they came from the factory. But the rules didn't say anything about dipping car bodies in acid to remove metal and make them lighter, which is what the Penske team did. Smokey Yunick was famous for figuring out ways to add extra fuel capacity to his NASCAR racers. For example, NASCAR specified how big a fuel tank could be, but Yunick noticed the rules didn’t say anything about fuel lines, so he created a two-inch diameter fuel line that was 11 feet long and held five extra gallons of gas. I also remember a story that NASCAR’s tech inspectors once went over one of his cars and drained every single drop of fuel out of everything they could see. Satisfied that the car wasn’t carrying any extra gas, they turned it back over. Yunick hopped in, started it up, and drove the “bone dry” car back to the garage.


:shock:

That is brilliant.
JS©
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,550
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:52 am
Location: hooray for me

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:22 pm

Shyster wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Wouldn't "finding a loophole" imply that you are in fact not violating the rules?

It would depend on whether you draw a distinction between the spirit of the rules and the letter of the rules. As a lawyer, I certainly draw that distinction. :)


I figured as much. :wink:
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Tomas on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:02 am

tifosi77 wrote:
KennyTheKangaroo wrote:tif, what about the lying and/or grandstanding

What's he supposed to say and do?

The athlete's job is to cheat. The governing body's job is to catch them. That's how it works.

He never tested positive. Not saying he didn't dope, but the governing body didn't do their job well enough and LA made them out to be fools.


I don't approve, but I can understand the desire to go as far as possible to gain the edge over the competition.

I would even understand the lying, even though the grandstanding (tweeting himself with 7 TDF yellow jerseys) is rather tasteless.

Where Armstrong loses completely my support is the fact that over the years, despite the fact that he doped like there was no tomorrow, he himself as well as his possy tried to destroy lives and livelihoods of people who disclosed any info about Armstrong's doping - or even just testified against his doctor. I honestly think some of his behavior was criminal (this interview with Betsy Andreu describes some of those instances: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-tea ... -1.1238932). Just for what he did to those people, he deserves a massive kick in the ball.
Tomas
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,278
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:21 am

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:32 am

Tomas wrote:Just for what he did to those people, he deserves a massive kick in the ball.

:lol:

What you did there, it has been seen. By me.
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,392
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 2:55 am

Shyster wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:I spent a year involved with professional motor racing in this country, and have friends that have gone on to work with pro teams in the big four sports in this country (football, hockey, baseball and basketball). The notion that athletes don't cheat or that cheaters are the exception is almost quaint to me. It's like "Aw, how cute...... 'fair play'....."

I remember an article years ago in either Car and Driver or Road & Track that discussed the difference between cheating and cheatin’ in auto racing. Cheating is flagrant rule violations. Cheatin’ is taking the rules and finding any loopholes you can exploit. For example, years ago the Trans-Am series required the race cars to run car bodies as they came from the factory. But the rules didn't say anything about dipping car bodies in acid to remove metal and make them lighter, which is what the Penske team did. Smokey Yunick was famous for figuring out ways to add extra fuel capacity to his NASCAR racers. For example, NASCAR specified how big a fuel tank could be, but Yunick noticed the rules didn’t say anything about fuel lines, so he created a two-inch diameter fuel line that was 11 feet long and held five extra gallons of gas. I also remember a story that NASCAR’s tech inspectors once went over one of his cars and drained every single drop of fuel out of everything they could see. Satisfied that the car wasn’t carrying any extra gas, they turned it back over. Yunick hopped in, started it up, and drove the “bone dry” car back to the garage.

Honestly, as I was typing that I was thinking "Shyster might be the only reglar here who gets what I'm saying without further explanation."

In terms of enforcement, there is a world of difference between 'spirit of the law' or 'intent', and what's actually written in the rule books. In sport, the latter is the only thing that matters. But on a philosophical/emotional level, if you know what a specific rule is meant to prohibit but you find a way within the verbiage of that rule to accomplish that very thing.... well, to me that's cheating. It might not be punishable as such, but you know as the perpetrator that you are doing something the rule makers don't want you to do..... and to me, that's clearly cheating.

Trust me...... I grew up as a Ferrari Formula 1 fan. I know from parsing words in rule interpretation. :fist:
tifosi77
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,392
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:33 pm
Location: White-Juday Warp Field Interferometer

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby JS© on Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:16 am

tifosi77 wrote:
Tomas wrote:Just for what he did to those people, he deserves a massive kick in the ball.

:lol:

What you did there, it has been seen. By me.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/0 ... 43828.html
JS©
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,550
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 11:52 am
Location: hooray for me

Re: Lance Armstrong

Postby Gaucho on Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:00 am

It seems to me that what Armstrong and his fellow cycling pros are doing has very little to do with cheating and much more with outright fraud.
Gaucho
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 41,499
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:22 am
Location: The Onyx Club

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GJ, meow, orpchar, the wicked child and 12 guests


e-mail