2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

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2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby netwolf on Mon Jan 14, 2013 7:34 pm

http://letsgopens.com/camp_reports.php?id=78

Questions/comments, welcome as always.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Gaucho on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:00 pm

"he should never, ever be set up on the left side"

I throw a hissy fit whenever that happens. Mind-boggling.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Tico Rick on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:16 pm

Thanks, netwolf. Will the moustache boy tradition survive the shortened season?
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby pcm on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:17 pm

2 separate units. Malkin and Crosby always in their optimal position. Never on the left side. One of the two gets to face a 2nd pairing unit. Full 2 minutes of PP with 71 or 87 on the ice. Don't ever have to see Kennedy-Sutter-Dupuis on the man-advantage. What is the coaching staff missing here?
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby tfrizz on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:30 pm

pcm wrote:What is the coaching staff missing here?

Depth. I'm not sold on there being enough to put two good groups together, plus you're forcing Crosby and Making to compete for ice time on the PP - not good since the first unit is almost always out there for 1:30-1:45.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby offsides on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:31 pm

thanks net, good job as usual. Wonder if that second PP unit will have much success? Doesn't look to robust.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby netwolf on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:38 pm

No reason to think mustache boy won't be around...

Tangradi would seem to be a glaring omission from the second unit, especially if he holds onto a top 6 F spot. That said, the second unit doesn't see a ton of time (especially not as a whole), so how much does it matter?
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby pcm on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:39 pm

The first unit is out here for 80% of the time because our 2nd unit is worthless. It's even more worthless without Staal, if that's possible. The best power plays in the league the past few years simply rolled 2 units. And rolled over the opposition.

First man off can always be subbed by Malkin or Crosby, so maybe you overlap a possesion with both of them on the ice. Keep Letang-NIskanen out there as long as possible. Sub in Despres-Martin for the last 20 seconds. Rotate which unit (Crosby or Malkin) goes on for the first minute so there's no competition.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby DesertPenguin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:56 pm

1st Unit PP was almost what I expected, but Neal and Sid's positions were swapped. Depending on the flow of the play, either Neal or Geno will be playing a point opposite Letang. I hope those guys remember to cover on D if the other team gets the puck out of the zone. It would be really nice to have a right hander where Neal is (Sutter), but it's not worth dropping one of Malkin - Crosby - Letang - Neal from the first PP to do it. Kunitz wins the 5th spot by default because no one else has the ability to play net front except, maybe Tangradi. I guess Sid could do it with how strong he is and how good he is with deflections, but no way do you expose your franchise player to that kind of punishment.

Speaking of Tangradi, I was surprised he wasn't on the 2nd PP unit, especially with Bylsma praising his net front PP presence in an interview a couple days ago. It's also interesting that Despres is still lined up with Engelland. The longer he's there, the more likely he is to start the season there, meaning we've got two players to find new homes for.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:05 pm

The 2nd unit will always be worthless as long as we only have 1 defenseman on the team who can play point.

Anyways...sounds like a similar setup as last year when Sid came back. I'm curious how they'll prevent shorthanded goals with that arrangement, though.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby shmenguin on Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:17 pm

Or how about a real life example. Last year, we had a unit of Geno, Neal, Kunitz, Sullivan and Martin for an extended period of time. That's the 2 best PP forwards in hockey, a legit net front presence and a capable player in Sullivan.

That unit was atrocious. Actually, considering the talent level, atrocious is an understatement. Why? Because the point men weren't good enough.

If you split the units, the 2nd unit will suck in ways you could never imagine. You don't put guys like malkin in that position where you leave 20 or so points off their stats because there's just too much talent on the top unit or because of balance. Especially not when you want them to be motivated to sign a nice contract.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Senka on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:33 pm

Im the biggest Paul Martin neigh-sayer... and I got high hopes for him this season. Im willing to give him a chance before I scream at my tv.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby FC on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:36 pm

Thank you for posting...I live 800 miles away so the only camp info I get is from here...Buy yourself a beer on me :fist:
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby offsides on Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:52 pm

Senka wrote:Im the biggest Paul Martin neigh-sayer... and I got high hopes for him this season. Im willing to give him a chance before I scream at my tv.


How many bad games does he get before the screaming starts? :) I'll start screaming after about 4.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby JoseCuervo on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:07 am

Pens were top 5 in PP% last year. I don't quite understand the PP whining.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby netwolf on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:44 am

I think part of the power play angst comes from thinking last year was the exception. Last years top 5 finish was the only time Bylsma's had one that finished higher than 19th. The two big differences for that unit were Steve Sullivan and the emergence of James Neal, and Sullivan is gone. It's easy to say that 87 is back, so that should mitigate Sullivan's absence, but 87 and 71 have played power together whenever both have been healthy, and results have been mixed at best.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby farnham16 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 1:34 am

netwolf wrote:I think part of the power play angst comes from thinking last year was the exception. Last years top 5 finish was the only time Bylsma's had one that finished higher than 19th. The two big differences for that unit were Steve Sullivan and the emergence of James Neal, and Sullivan is gone. It's easy to say that 87 is back, so that should mitigate Sullivan's absence, but 87 and 71 have played power together whenever both have been healthy, and results have been mixed at best.


Yes. And the Pens PP in the post season under DB has been very questionable. More evidence to the belief that Bylsma strong suit isn't making adjustments.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:21 am

farnham16 wrote:
netwolf wrote:I think part of the power play angst comes from thinking last year was the exception. Last years top 5 finish was the only time Bylsma's had one that finished higher than 19th. The two big differences for that unit were Steve Sullivan and the emergence of James Neal, and Sullivan is gone. It's easy to say that 87 is back, so that should mitigate Sullivan's absence, but 87 and 71 have played power together whenever both have been healthy, and results have been mixed at best.


Yes. And the Pens PP in the post season under DB has been very questionable. More evidence to the belief that Bylsma strong suit isn't making adjustments.


I totally agree, here are my questions for Disco:

1 - When Neal displays unquestionable success leading the league in PPG, why move him to point?!
Geno's passing and Neal's release were a lethal combination that negated the Pens lack of a decent blueline shooter (not to mention the inherrant SHG danger of 4 forwards illustrated by Sully last season). HCDB just broke the only really good thing we had going on the PP (besides pure talent).

2 - Why force Crosby or Malkin out of their natural position?!
They simply do not work together as neither willingly accepts nor relinquishes total control resulting in confusion and hesitation for a minute and a half. As suggested above, give them each a unit rolled with equal ice. One unit overloaded with talent looks good on paper, not on the ice.

3 - Why is Tangradi not on the #2PP?!
This is pretty much the only place even the haters might see ET adding value. He has been banging in garbage in the AHL and could fill an obvious hole with his huge frame crashing the crease. If you can't utilise a player who doesn't fit the system by recognizing their best attributes then just get rid of the guy!

ps, thanks again Netwolf
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby shmenguin on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:27 am

this arrangement with sid and geno on the same unit and letang as the only point man ended up being very successful last season. there's no reason to think we won't be back in the top 5 with that setup. I really wouldn't be surprised if we had the best % in the league.

the only concern i have is our ability to not give up short handed goals.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Penspal on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:39 am

Netwolf, your camp posts are the official start of the campaign. Thanks for doing them.

I like the tidbit on Lovejoy's Datsykian move, I do hope someone has that on video/youtube.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:43 am

shmenguin wrote:this arrangement with sid and geno on the same unit and letang as the only point man ended up being very successful last season. there's no reason to think we won't be back in the top 5 with that setup. I really wouldn't be surprised if we had the best % in the league.

the only concern i have is our ability to not give up short handed goals.


Yes they had success and looked like an Allstar Skills shooting comp at times, but at others looked utterly lost (as they have throughout the years when sharing ice on the PP). They also had Neal on the ice with them and I don't recall him being a point/D rover. SHG are back-breakers for morale and horrid to see in the playoffs, as we all know!
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Defence21 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:27 pm

pcm wrote:The first unit is out here for 80% of the time because our 2nd unit is worthless. It's even more worthless without Staal, if that's possible. The best power plays in the league the past few years simply rolled 2 units. And rolled over the opposition.

First man off can always be subbed by Malkin or Crosby, so maybe you overlap a possesion with both of them on the ice. Keep Letang-NIskanen out there as long as possible. Sub in Despres-Martin for the last 20 seconds. Rotate which unit (Crosby or Malkin) goes on for the first minute so there's no competition.

This doesn't make any sense. You'd rather keep Letang and Niskanen on the ice as long as possible than keep Crosby and Malkin on the ice as long as possible. I understand the thought that splitting the two makes for two quality units, but who's to say there's even an opportunity for a line change? Then you've got one of the top two players in the world riding the pine.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby sil on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:49 pm

There are two huge problems that continue to come up when a team uses only one real PP squad. (1) Said squad cannot maintain any real pressure or cohesion for a full 2-minutes...as well conditioned as they players are, that is just way too much...especially if we have a night where we get a lot of calls. (2) We're basically an inept team for the 2-3 minutes following every PP oppertunity when we skate our best forwards and best defender for 2 minutes straight.
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Luckybreak on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:52 pm

Defence21 wrote:
pcm wrote:The first unit is out here for 80% of the time because our 2nd unit is worthless. It's even more worthless without Staal, if that's possible. The best power plays in the league the past few years simply rolled 2 units. And rolled over the opposition.

First man off can always be subbed by Malkin or Crosby, so maybe you overlap a possesion with both of them on the ice. Keep Letang-NIskanen out there as long as possible. Sub in Despres-Martin for the last 20 seconds. Rotate which unit (Crosby or Malkin) goes on for the first minute so there's no competition.

This doesn't make any sense. You'd rather keep Letang and Niskanen on the ice as long as possible than keep Crosby and Malkin on the ice as long as possible. I understand the thought that splitting the two makes for two quality units, but who's to say there's even an opportunity for a line change? Then you've got one of the top two players in the world riding the pine.


One huge issue with the PP is Letang as the best qualified QB then there's a massive drop off after (Nisky is serviceable, Martin can carry the puck but can't shoot for toffee, then nothing unless Despres wins a spot).
I'd keep Letang and Nisky on the ice as long as possible (irrespective of Sid/Geno) just to avoid seeing Martin! Whilst it seems like a waste not having one of the greatest on the ice, why put them in a position they aren't suited to (such as Geno on the left side)? Sid, Geno and Neal are all lefties so are far more dangerous on the right, but with no one-time threat from the other side of the ice it becomes easier to shut down. TK and Sutter are light years behind in terms of talent but could one time a shot from the left side and force the PK to be honest...
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Re: 2013 Training Camp, Day 2 Report is up

Postby Defence21 on Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:56 pm

sil wrote:There are two huge problems that continue to come up when a team uses only one real PP squad. (1) Said squad cannot maintain any real pressure or cohesion for a full 2-minutes...as well conditioned as they players are, that is just way too much...especially if we have a night where we get a lot of calls. (2) We're basically an inept team for the 2-3 minutes following every PP oppertunity when we skate our best forwards and best defender for 2 minutes straight.

I'll buy your first point. Keeping a unit on the ice for two minutes is rough and can result in discombobulation and maybe even shorthanded chances against. I'm not for keeping the top unit on the ice for two minutes, but I am for having a distinct and clear top unit. Splitting the star talent into two units sets up a scenario where some of the best players in the world aren't being utilized enough. I'd rather see Malkin, Crosby, Neal and Letang on the ice for 1:15 - 1:30 with a second rate second unit for the final 0:30 - 0:45 than see Crosby, Malkin, Neal, and/or Letang play 0:30.

I won't buy your second point. If the power play takes up our first and second lines, plug the third line on the ice immediately after. It makes sense, considering it is the checking/defensive line and the opposition likely will shift from defense-first PKers to a scoring line. Then bump the fourth line out there and things should be back to normal. This really isn't and shouldn't be a problem.
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