LGP Political Discussion Thread

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:45 pm

So what would be a more reasoned response be, in your opinion, to preserve the Second Amendment?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:48 pm

Acknowledging that there is no publiic good to have you walking around with 30 round clips and that the tradeoff of you getting off on the thrill of that just might not be worth the danger of same maniac using the same to slaughter people.

aka Show some **** common sense.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:56 pm

The maniac is going to slaughter people whether or not Shyster has a 30-round clip or not. Taking it away from Shyster will save zero lives.

Liberals think with emotion, not logic.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:56 pm

Alejandro Rojas wrote:The maniac is going to slaughter people whether or not Shyster has a 30-round clip or not. Taking it away from Shyster will save zero lives.

Liberals think with emotion, not logic.


:lol:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:00 pm

columbia wrote:Acknowledging that there is no publiic good to have you walking around with 30 round clips and that the tradeoff of you getting off on the thrill of that just might not be worth the danger of same maniac using the same to slaughter people.

I do not agree that there is no public good to “30 round clips.” I do not “get off” on carrying a firearm. I do not agree with any of your premises. In fact, I believe that so-called assault weapons cannot be banned under Heller because that case held that the Second Amendment protects the ownership and possession of guns “typically possessed by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes,” and in fact millions of semi-automatic rifles are owned by law-abiding citizens for lawful purposes. Moreover, while the Court in Heller did say that “nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms,” that does not mean that a gun ban would be constitutional as a “reasonable regulation,” as otherwise the Court would have held that the District of Columbia’s ban on handguns was such a reasonable regulation. An exception cannot swallow the rule.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Shyster on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:02 pm

Also, a position is not representative of “common sense” merely because you happen to hold it.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Gaucho on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:03 pm

Alejandro Rojas wrote:Liberals think with emotion, not logic.


Right. And conservatives consult the bible before taking a crap.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:04 pm

Shyster wrote:I do not agree that there is no public good to “30 round clips.”


Then be prepared defend that more in the future.

Shyster wrote:I do not “get off” on carrying a firearm.


Based on your posting history on the subject, it seems to rise to the level of a fetish.
Maybe it's not and you just have a PR problem like the NRA?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:06 pm

Shyster wrote:Also, a position is not representative of “common sense” merely because you happen to hold it.


You mean like the the universal - and I'm not talking about laws - virtue of guns?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:38 pm

No one has a need to walk around with 30 round clips. I'm not sure any rifles still have or have ever had a 30 round internal magazine that's loaded by clips.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:43 pm

Image

Pandering at its finest
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:14 am

Shyster wrote:An exception cannot swallow the rule.

Or, if I may reduce this to a cliche, hard cases make for bad law.

columbia wrote:Based on your posting history on the subject, it seems to rise to the level of a fetish.
Maybe it's not and you just have a PR problem like the NRA?

I completely and vehemently object to this.

You clearly aren't a guy guy. That's fine, I have no basic quarrel with that. But you are projecting your viewpoint on to Shyster's words and coming away with a completely ill-informed view.

People who like guns - who enjoy collecting them, who admire them as works of art and engineering, who choose to wear them on their bodies as implements of defense - do not worship guns. They do not get together every first Thursday of the month to masturbate over the newest issue of Guns & Ammo. They do not fantasize about guns. They view guns ad a tool, nothing more. Some - the overwhelming minority - use them as implements of fear and terror. But the vast majority - I'd guess well over 90% of gun owners - take the responsibility that comes with gun ownership as almost sacred. I don't believe in god, but if he/she does exist I'm pretty sure they'd want me to keep the muzzle pointed downrange and to check the breach every time someone handed me a gun.

Honestly, have you ever been a part of a gun safety or shooting class? I cannot tell you the number of times instructors press certain points home..... ALL GUNS ARE LOADED.... DO NOT point a gun at something you aren't willing and able to destroy....

And I think it is partly because of this basic element of not getting it that results in many of the 'pro' and 'con' advocates simply speaking past each other. The cons can't get past the seeming absurdity of 30-round magazines, and the pros can't understand why anyone would question why a lawful citizen wouldn't want a 30-round magazine available to defend their sovereignty. (I guess that latter point might be more accurately characterized as wondering why it's anyone else's business what one thinks is appropriate in determining how to protect themselves.)

You seem eager to call out certain elements that illustrate either an inherent bias or a fundamental lack of understanding of just how seriously most gun owners approach their responsibilities. But it's definitely one or the other of those two. The former is, of course, out of bounds. The later, if that be the case, is..... alterable.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby FallenHero96 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:32 am

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:09 am

shafnutz05 wrote:Image

Pandering at its finest


Notice the very purposeful racial and gender rainbow presented.

Indian-American female
African-American male
White female
White male
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Geezer on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:16 am

shafnutz05 wrote:Image

Pandering at its finest

Need some handicapped in the pic. Nancy Pelosi could doctor the picture for some additions. A girl in a headscarf/veil would also be a nice touch.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby DelPen on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:30 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
shafnutz05 wrote:Image

Pandering at its finest


Notice the very purposeful racial and gender rainbow presented.

Indian-American female
African-American male
White female
White male


Note that the Hispanic child that was scheduled to appear was murdered by a weapon provided to the drug cartels by the ATF and FBI from fast and Furious.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:32 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:The maniac is going to slaughter people whether or not Shyster has a 30-round clip or not. Taking it away from Shyster will save zero lives.

Liberals think with emotion, not logic.


I doubt the purpose of the proposal is to take away 30 round clips from Shyster.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby mac5155 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:32 am

pfim wrote:
Alejandro Rojas wrote:The maniac is going to slaughter people whether or not Shyster has a 30-round clip or not. Taking it away from Shyster will save zero lives.

Liberals think with emotion, not logic.


I doubt the purpose of the proposal is to take away 30 round clips from Shyster.


But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:36 am

mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Factorial on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:39 am

Pitt87 wrote:
Factorial wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:Just looked at my first paycheck of the new year an wanted thank our President for the pay cut today. No tax increases on middle class didn't even last long enough to be inaugurated for a second term.


What short memories people have. The GOP House was against extending the payroll tax holiday to 2012 but it made it through eventually and neither the Democrats or the GOP had plans to extend it in 2013.


No need to be indirect, but you should be sure you fully understand my comment before you assume I was referring to the payroll tax... I consider myself a pretty meticulous tax planner, so I was prepared for a check-based increase. What I was not prepared for was virtually no consideration in the middle-income rates. It is this administrations' tax policy, that, over the last 4 years, has targeted those that they claim to protect. Payroll tax is one component of the total tax that Barack Obama committed both before and after the election -- check the tape, to use his words -- to rallying his party around the in support of the middle class' 'share', only to completely abandon them in negotiations. As a result, revenues are up, spending cuts have been suspended, and everyone with a job, even those that are careful tax planners like myself, have a nice wet chunk taken out of their gross pay with little recourse to make up the deficit.... at least those that have higher rates aren't impacted until their first quarter payment is due...

Publicly, he espoused a commitment to cutting total taxes on 160 million Americans in the 'middle class', yet he managed to levy an immediate cashflow out of those paychecks immediately, while artfully neglecting to resolve the tax issue for the group that can least likely absorb a 2% tax hike.


I'm having a hard time understanding which tax you are saying has gone up on you. :?:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Alejandro Rojas on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:43 am

pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby pfim on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:49 am

Alejandro Rojas wrote:
pfim wrote:
mac5155 wrote:
But it's going to, and the maniac will still get them.


How?


1) Shyster, a law abiding citizen, will be precluded from owning a 30 round clip (should one exist).

2) The maniac will purchase the now illegal 30 round clip (should one exist) illegally.


So to relate this to a real life situation, the 20 year old loser maniac who shot up the school in Newtown would have gone to the black market to purchase a 30 round clip that probably doesn't exist?

Doesn't seem plausible.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:50 am

tifosi77 wrote:And I think it is partly because of this basic element of not getting it that results in many of the 'pro' and 'con' advocates simply speaking past each other. The cons can't get past the seeming absurdity of 30-round magazines, and the pros can't understand why anyone would question why a lawful citizen wouldn't want a 30-round magazine available to defend their sovereignty. (I guess that latter point might be more accurately characterized as wondering why it's anyone else's business what one thinks is appropriate in determining how to protect themselves.)
.


So where does it stop?
Are you cool with the guy next door having a bazooka? Maybe a tank or an armed drone patrolling the neighborhood?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:50 am

Spoiler:
I completely and vehemently object to this.

You clearly aren't a guy guy. That's fine, I have no basic quarrel with that. But you are projecting your viewpoint on to Shyster's words and coming away with a completely ill-informed view.

People who like guns - who enjoy collecting them, who admire them as works of art and engineering, who choose to wear them on their bodies as implements of defense - do not worship guns. They do not get together every first Thursday of the month to masturbate over the newest issue of Guns & Ammo. They do not fantasize about guns. They view guns ad a tool, nothing more. Some - the overwhelming minority - use them as implements of fear and terror. But the vast majority - I'd guess well over 90% of gun owners - take the responsibility that comes with gun ownership as almost sacred. I don't believe in god, but if he/she does exist I'm pretty sure they'd want me to keep the muzzle pointed downrange and to check the breach every time someone handed me a gun.

Honestly, have you ever been a part of a gun safety or shooting class? I cannot tell you the number of times instructors press certain points home..... ALL GUNS ARE LOADED.... DO NOT point a gun at something you aren't willing and able to destroy....

And I think it is partly because of this basic element of not getting it that results in many of the 'pro' and 'con' advocates simply speaking past each other. The cons can't get past the seeming absurdity of 30-round magazines, and the pros can't understand why anyone would question why a lawful citizen wouldn't want a 30-round magazine available to defend their sovereignty. (I guess that latter point might be more accurately characterized as wondering why it's anyone else's business what one thinks is appropriate in determining how to protect themselves.)

You seem eager to call out certain elements that illustrate either an inherent bias or a fundamental lack of understanding of just how seriously most gun owners approach their responsibilities. But it's definitely one or the other of those two. The former is, of course, out of bounds. The later, if that be the case, is..... alterable.


Just thought this needed to be repeated. I think tif makes a very eloquent case here as to why gun owners take such offense to being demonized like this.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:52 am

columbia wrote:Are you cool with the guy next door having a bazooka? Maybe a tank or an armed drone patrolling the neighborhood?


Of course not. That would infringe on the rights of other people living in the neighborhood. Unlike a legally owned gun safely stored in the guy's house.
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