Exactly 15 years ago

[Tomas]

My small apartment in Squirrel Hill. Just me and some beer. Middle of the night. Hasek out of this Galaxy. Good times... I can't believe how much time flies.



BTW, the blonde at 3:06 is an American - Mrs. Lang, I believe.

[Rylan]

I see penalties weren't called back then either.

[Dan H]

Quick, hide your hotel rooms.

[mikey287]

- Who would you take, Tomas, all time? Robert Reichel or Jiri Dopita?

- With Canada also getting kyboshed early in this tournament, I know it's a total longshot, but let's say Richter goes all 1996 World Cup on this thing and carries the U.S. to gold...we're talking about one of those "money" goalies for all time, right? Or no? 1994 playoffs, 1996 World Cup, 1997 playoffs (esp. if he were to find a way past the Flyers*), 1998 Olympics...

* - Going into the Flyers series he was 8-2, 1.31 GAA, .959 save pct., 3 shutouts; Flyers series: 1-4, 3.83 GAA, .869 save pct.

As it stands, I don't have him as a top-50 goalie of all time. I wonder what happens if these Olympics go different and/or he, at least, takes the Flyers to 7 in '97 Eastern Conference Finals...

[profpolisci]

top-50 goalie of all time.

mikey
Who's your Top 10?

[mikey287]

It's so tight with goalies, so my opinion can be swayed a bit here and again when new information turns up...today:

1. Hasek
2. Roy
3. Brodeur
4. Hall
5. Plante
6. Sawchuk
7. Dryden
8. Brimsek
9. Tretiak
10. Vezina

Ask again tomorrow...might swap 8/9, 3 thru 5, hell, even 1/2, etc.

[profpolisci]

Nice.

I'd have Tretiak and Dryden ahead of Sawchuck, but not by much...or, maybe not.

[mikey287]

Some conventional wisdom suggests that Sawchuk is #1. And some people have him there. I used to have him pretty staunchly in my top-5 as a result. But after further investigation, I'm not really sure what he has besides a really high peak (about 5 years or so). I say that WRT other "best goalies of all time" not vs. Kelly Hrudey...after further research, I have Sawchuk pretty decidedly out of my top 5.

Tretiak scares me because of competition level. Yes, he has a lot of prize money from the second best league in the world at the time, but who was he winning it against? Konovalenko and Myshkin? Meh...not impressed. Lucky for him (well, you know what I mean...), I saw him and realize that he was awesome. That and he fared well internationally...though there's a small faction that would take Jiri Holecek over him, which I think is bunk...I think Holecek sucks in fact and was a product of the Czechoslovakian system of the 70's...

Dryden is all peak, all in one situation, so it's a bit scary...there's no time to let it figure itself out so to speak...he was great though, even though he played for a strong club, he was a big part of them winning...I just kind of wonder what happens when someone else ends up there, like Mike Liut - a pretty similar goalie who came around a bit later - big college guy I believe too...also struggled in international competition...which ultimately derailed Liut's career it seems...that 1981 Canada Cup might have just about robbed us of a name to put up there with Fuhr and Smith in the 80's...

Anyway, enough out of me...

[Rylan]

I like your list mikey. Personally I would have Dryden ahead of Brodeur as the 3rd greatest goalie, but a lot of that has to do with Dryden never really failing as a goalie. Now I don't know anything about international play, but his in league play is unbelievable and to top it off he quit while he was still legendary. But Brodeur is close in 4th because of his longevity and durability while still maintaining as one of the best goalies in the league for such a long time.

After Brodeur, where do you place other modern goalies such as King Henrik and Rinne?

[Gaucho]

THN had Sawchuk 1st overall back when they compiled their list of Top 100 NHL players of all time (which would exclude Tretiak, of course). These are the goalies that made their list:

1. Sawchuk
2. Plante
3. Hall
4. Dryden
5. Durnan
6. Roy
7. Hainsworth
8. Broda
9. Parent
10. Brimsek
11. Fuhr
12. Vezina
13. Gardiner
14. Benedict
15. Esposito
16. Smith
17. Chabot
18. Bower
19. Hasek

It is safe to assume that both Hasek and Brodeur would make their Top 10 by now, and they in fact ranked Roy higher in an updated list. I realize this is not gospel, but given the pedigree of the 50 people compiling the list (Al Arbour, Scott Bowman, Bob McKenzie, Frank Selke etc), there is no way Sawchuk - their top goalie of all time - would not make the Top 5.

[mikey287]

I like your list mikey. Personally I would have Dryden ahead of Brodeur as the 3rd greatest goalie, but a lot of that has to do with Dryden never really failing as a goalie. Now I don't know anything about international play, but his in league play is unbelievable and to top it off he quit while he was still legendary. But Brodeur is close in 4th because of his longevity and durability while still maintaining as one of the best goalies in the league for such a long time.

After Brodeur, where do you place other modern goalies such as King Henrik and Rinne?

Well, sorry, Tomas, I've sufficiently derailed this thread...

Well, personally, I couldn't have Dryden anywhere above 7 I don't think...he only played 7 seasons. Granted, he was the best goalie in the league over the course of those 7 years as a whole (5x 1st Team All-Star). But he also quit on his team in 1974. He quit again, with a little more notice, in 1979. I deduct some points for that and his overall lack of longevity. He was not especially helpful in the '72 Summit Series and he didn't adjust the same way Tretiak did, adaptability and sustainability run high with me, especially as we move into the modern era.

I can't think of a reason to put Dryden ahead of Brodeur, personally. If you think they both played for teams that helped them out immensely (not sure if you do or don't), then Brodeur's extra dozen seasons or whatever against tougher competition (had to fend off Hasek and Roy (1, 2 all time) and Belfour for Vezina/AS Team love)...off hand, I believe Brodeur was an 11x 1st, 2nd or "3rd team" All-Star. Brodeur also delivered a gold medal in 2002, after Roy failed to do deliver one in 1998...AND wouldn't let Brodeur try his hand at it either...

Some people love Dryden, I think he's a clear step down from the pack as a whole. His save pct. numbers in the 70's are quite ridiculous though, and they're quite sufficiently above his backups (largely, Bunny Laroque).

Re: Lundqvist. I rate him pretty high actually. Today, for me, goaltending is about consistency now that the talent level has evened out. High peaks and low valleys are usually the trait of an unkempt goaltender. That's why you see these pan flashes come and go, and while some may have a high peak, it's generally a result of his team, as it's not sustainable (Carey, Cechmanek, Giguere, Thomas, etc.)...

Off-hand, I think Lundqvist has six straight top-6 finishes for the Vezina (as voted by the GMs), no one else really has that right now. So he's up there, in like Vanbiesbrouck territory for me. 35-40ish, maybe 33, somewhere in there...Luongo is absent from your question purposefully? He belongs.

Rinne isn't on my radar historically. I don't think I'm ready for that quite yet. Though, if this season keeps up, he'll already start to creep into the discussion on the fringes of it...once you get past 25 or 30 or so on an all-time goalie list, every awesome season jumps a lot of names at once...surprisingly shallow goalie pool on an all-time scale, as far as I'm concerned...I mean, look, I have a non-NHLer and a pre-forward pass goalie in my top 10...

[mikey287]

THN had Sawchuk 1st overall back when they compiled their list of Top 100 NHL players of all time (which would exclude Tretiak, of course). These are the goalies that made their list:

1. Sawchuk
2. Plante
3. Hall
4. Dryden
5. Durnan
6. Roy
7. Hainsworth
8. Broda
9. Parent
10. Brimsek
11. Fuhr
12. Vezina
13. Gardiner
14. Benedict
15. Esposito
16. Smith
17. Chabot
18. Bower
19. Hasek

It is safe to assume that both Hasek and Brodeur would make their Top 10 by now, and they in fact ranked Roy higher in an updated list. I realize this is not gospel, but given the pedigree of the 50 people compiling the list (Al Arbour, Scott Bowman, Bob McKenzie, Frank Selke etc), there is no way Sawchuk - their top goalie of all time - would not make the Top 5.

THN doesn't really do all that great of a job with their lists. It's tough when you just start asking people to do an all-time list of anything without giving them time to at least refresh their memory, so to speak.

If you asked me the 20 greatest Penguins of all time, even though we just did that draft and I had knowledge going into it, I'm not sure I could sit there and name them in any sort of "right" order...I'd want to sit down and look it over and then do it...maybe you can pop off of a top-5 or top-10 without breaking a sweat, but when you start to get into these lengthy lists, there's just no way...

Bowman recently released a list of his top 100 players of all time and I take what Bowman says very, very, very seriously...and the list was total crap. If it was posted on a hockey history message board, it would be removed because it would cause such disdain and laughter...hell, I think Wendel Clark made it at like 89...

@ the above list, which I don't want to micro-analyze...

Ignoring the top 10 I just posted, which is pretty well researched and backed with film (exception being Vezina).

Durnan - Extremely short career. Major benefit of playing in a league that was filled with AHL talent (I think he was the only goalie or one of two goalies that didn't go to War) because all the good players left to fight in the War. As a result, the Canadiens (who lost the fewest players by far to the War effort) ran roughshod over the competition. Games were not remotely close by and large. Sometimes double-digits to nothing. Durnan would have to stifle yawns during contests. The league never really fills back up sufficiently until after he's gone. He gets some credit for whatever happens after 1947, but by and large, it's like dropping Marian Gaborik into the ECHL and going "see! 200 goal season! He's the best!"

Hainsworth - This is just a stat grab, a poorly researched one at that. It doesn't appear he was even regarded as a top-3 goalie of his time. He gets a lot of mileage for his 22 shutouts in 44 games season, but the league managers didn't even vote that he was the best goalie that year. Style of play biases for both him and the team he played for existed (he was positional, no frills, his team: tidy in their own end). Ultimately though, Hainsworth was just not highly regarded in his time. He belongs on a list, somewhere, not top-20 though...not too far off that...tough to take a not top-3 goalie from a fairly iffy era and assign him so highly all time...especially if you aren't gonna take the guys above ahead of him...

Broda - He was very highly regarded. Some have him top-5, or a lock for top-10. Money goalie for the Leafs, durable, but often took regular seasons a little lightly. Leafs very good defensively at the time, shot blockers before it was popular some of them. Of the era, I ranked them: Brimsek, Broda, Durnan. All top 20, Broda/Brimsek definitely top 15 in my opinion...

Parent - Two-year peak in 1974 and 1975 gets him a lot of play. Though, it was probably the best two year peak for any goalie ever. Virtually unbeatable for two straight years. One knock: What else is there on his resume? Two knock: Save pct. figures for poor goalies on the same team as him are troublingly high Three knock: Wayne Stephenson, 1976. Parent is top 20 almost certainly. Not top 10, also, almost certainly. Had a knack for not allowing goals in tight games though, even more so than Dryden. Parent also faced more power play opportunities than many goalies, should be factored in. Tough to name that defense even from a 3x SC Finalist, but had the best defensive forward of all time at his disposal...

Fuhr - Fine, undersold by his numbers. Not top 20, but good longevity, adaptability, sustainability. Played for a wild Oilers team who would turn pucks over in their own end so frequently it's ridiculous. Might have won 5 straight Cups if not for Steve Smith.

Gardiner - Very short career, died pretty early on. Adapted very well to the forward pass. His career is basically all peak, except for the 13-61-10 start to his career. Him and Vezina were the first two goalies inducted into the Hall in the initial class. And it wasn't a direct result of his death, as the events were separated by more than a decade.

Benedict - Basically revoked the rule that goalies could drop down to the ice to make a save. Spent much of his time pretending to slip, and then would go horizontal and make the stop. He did it so often that the league just decided to do away with the rule all together, both in the East and the West. As a result of his "cheating" style, some loved him as an innovator others chastised him as unsportsmanlike. No matter how you slice it, he was way better than Hainsworth. Wish we could have had another year or two after the forward pass was liberalized, in his final year when it was, he struggled. We'll never know if that was just a great player losing it or him being unable to adjust. If we throw it out as "eh, he was retiring..." he's right there with Gardiner in the top 15.

Smith - Belongs near Fuhr. Before research, I thought he was a system goalie (backed by the numbers posted by Chico Resch and Rollie Melanson on Long Island and after) but he was part of what made that system work. Superb in anticipation and position. Could read shots off the stick with no problem and kept play going for transitions. Had an easier time than Fuhr, no doubt, but his success mimics that, so it's a wash. Wish we could have seen him outside of Arbour, but according to my eye, he would have done well in any reasonable location (i.e. not including the '75 Capitals). Not top-20 though...I don't have him above Fuhr, but there's a very good case for it...

Chabot - lol. I never get this one. I'm not sure who they're asking about Chabot, I got to believe it's a relative of some sort. It's legitimately puzzling what people value when they put Chabot so high...he was voted as the best goalie once (1935) and it was immediately after the best goalie in the league died. I think he was on the cover of Time magazine once, maybe that's getting him some mileage. Otherwise, I'm not sure he's top 50.

Bower - Worked his way up. Played for a defensive Leafs team. Played until he was like 65 or something like that...no one was sure of his age at the time, it seemed that he didn't want to tell anyone because he was scared they send him away...put together a good career and was very good in the AHL's finest hour as well. Think about it, the best goalie in the AHL in 1959 is, at worst, the 7th best goalie in the world. Case for top-5 sometimes depending on the quality of the Blackhawks or Rangers goalie at the time. Made a nice career for himself despite the speed bumps. Good case for top-20 plus or minus.

No Belfour probably is date of publication related, I guess...

No Worters or Tiny Thompson is lack of research I guess...

[Gaucho]

The list was compiled - over several months, not on the spur of the moment - by 50 people who are or were regarded among the greatest hockey minds. As I said, it may not be gospel, but it's probably not complete garbage either. Don't get me wrong, but these people have actually seen most of the guys they nominated play and followed their careers first-hand, which, in the end, will aways be worth way more than all the research in the world. Just mho.

[mikey287]

I don't disagree. But if I recall, this list was rather shoddily put together. I think they asked for a top 50 and then they didn't know what do with all the extras so they tacked them on to the bottom of the list and made a top 100...which is pretty dubious in its own right...

It's probably not complete garbage, but I'd like to know the individual level of thought put into it by each of the panel members. Which sounds pedantic, but honestly, it's supremely necessary. Did it take months because they were waiting for Stan Fischler to accumulate enough 2-cent stamps to mail back his list or did it take months because a team or group took the time to formulate a list from the top of their head and then research it to re-affirm their own initial conclusions? Undoubtedly, they didn't see Vezina, Gardiner, Chabot, Hainsworth and Benedict...probably add Durnan and Brimsek to that list as well...and Sawchuk's prime was probably missed by nearly all which is whole bread and butter...so right there, we're at one-third of the goalies that couldn't just be conjured up from memory and that's being generous to the panel...

By research, I don't mean "ok, let's sort by GAA...done, here's the list!" I mean, award voting, contemporary opinion, newspaper accounts of games, plus whatever these guys used: some stats [though, not raw numbers, hopefully], the eye test, etc. - if they did that, they'd actually have a decent list I'm sure, better than anything I could do...but it's clear by their inconsistency (and out right guesswork, Chabot) that they did not.

[Gaucho]

IIRC, the Top 50 was seriouz bizness back then, but I will agree that the next 50 was probably sort of a hodgepodge affair (I own the Top 100 book and they didn't seem to know either why Chabot appears on the list) and that some guesswork was involved. Still, and going back to my original point, it seems universally agreed upon that Sawchuk is at least Top 5 all time among goalies. Doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but it certainly cannot be dismissed.

[Rylan]

The reason I left out Luongo was more East Coast bias than anything. The out of sight out of mind thought process.

When was that top 50 made?

[mikey287]

Certainly, it's all very reasonable. Even Sawchuk as top-5...I mean, who am I to say otherwise? I'm a student of the game, I'm pre-med, I'm no brain surgeon...

The only thing I'll say is that based on the timing of these things. Roy was winding down, Hasek was winding down, Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, all long retired. We had the gist of their whole careers already. Brodeur is the only one to add anything of value in the last 5 years certainly, maybe 10. And they are important years, because the Devils were no longer that Stevens-Niedermayer-Madden-Pandolfo quagmire...all the people that knocked Brodeur as being a system goalie, now have 5, 7, 8 years or whatever of that not being the case and it's still high quality goaltending even in his advanced age with Andy Greene and Marek Zidlicky in charge of defense...it's not unthinkable that he's now top-5 of all time as of today, as he continues to play well gaining on 41 years old...

[Gaucho]

As I said, Hasek and Brodeur are definitely both Top 10, maybe both Top 5.

Rylan, the list was compiled in 97 I think.

[Rylan]

Wow I was 6 when that came out. Hadn't even been to my first game yet

But still, comparing goalies across the decades is the hardest to do IMO.

[Kaizer]

...

are you some kind of hockey nuclear physicist?

[mikey287]

...

are you some kind of hockey nuclear physicist?

Like I said, pre-med, not a brain surgeon. I just like the game a little bit...

[Tomas]

R. Čechmánek, J. Beránek, L. Procházka, M. Procházka, D. Hašek, P. Patera, D. Moravec, R. Šmehlík, R. Reichel, F. Kučera, J. Špaček, J. Čaloun, M. Ručinský, J. Šlégr, R. Lang, V. Růžička a M. Straka.





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