Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:36 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
sil wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:If Saad turns out to be a top 6 forward, then Shero clearly missed.


What if Harrington turns out to be a top-2 defenseman?


The pens have a glut of defenseman, and more than 2 projected to be high end defensemen. They have one forward in their system that has realistic potential to be a top 6 forward, how many defensemen do they have that can be projected as top 4(or top 2) defensemen?


So true on every level. Let's just ask this question. Who sells more tickets and is harder to replace, Brooks Orpik or James Neal? They are both considered to be top level at what they do. Heck sub in Letang if you want and you will still have any NHL team making the same choice. Gonchar was great for us and we shipped him out but we were willing to nearly sell our souls for Hossa. Both guys get top minutes but great wingers are cash money.

What's the current odds on Shero drafting another D this year? A trade-up for Jones perhaps?
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:42 pm

Also, I wasn't paying attention at all, and now i'm thinking back comparing Harrington to Saad. Wasn't Saad selected before Harrington got to the Pens? Why are we comparing them? Shero didn't have a choice between them.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Nizzy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:53 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Also, I wasn't paying attention at all, and now i'm thinking back comparing Harrington to Saad. Wasn't Saad selected before Harrington got to the Pens? Why are we comparing them? Shero didn't have a choice between them.


Because that's the bottom line, cause that's what I said in my incorrect post.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Nizzy on Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:58 pm

Let me save myself with a serious post. I think that Maatta is completely expendable for the Penguins. Assuming that they keep Despres & Bortuzzo, both young defenseman. They have Dumoulin, Pouliot, Morrow, Harrington, in no specific order that have Pro NHL potential. Chances are that one of the secondary prospects like a Samuelsson could amount to something after a few years as well.

Personally I don't want to see Kennedy on this team anymore. Maybe put a package of Maatta, Kennedy and something else (Nisky maybe?) I don't know, I like Despres on the first pairing with Letang. Can't sit here and say we want Iglina. If the Flames are a playoff seed they aren't trading him...you should almost put this thread on hold until the trade deadline and see who the Sellers are going to be.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:36 pm

Chances are also pretty reasonable that one of the above young defenders will be traded away.
I wouldn't assume that it will be Maatta....in fact, I'm sure Shero has no idea who it will be (at this point).
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby Gaucho on Tue Feb 19, 2013 5:39 pm

Shero hates Europeans, so it will be Maata.

pop
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:26 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:If Saad turns out to be a top 6 forward, then Shero clearly missed.


Eh. If both players hit their respective ceilings, Morrow will still be the more valuable player, so I wouldn't necessarily say that.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:34 pm

Nizzy wrote:
mikey287 wrote:It's not an unfair point. I just wonder if the organization sees that spot belonging to a big, slow, board worker at this point. Tangradi is shipped off for a song and the organization picks up a small, fairly quick skill guy. Maybe I shouldn't read much into the comings and goings of fringe NHLers, but you just kind of wonder how far detached we are from the 2008 and 2009 teams...

Malone, Guerin, Tangradi out. Sullivan, Boychuk, Bennett in.

You even start to see it in the drafting/prospects:
Before: signed scrubs Sill and Payerl, drafted Staal (big and slow), drafted Veilleux (big and slow), drafted Pierro-Zabotel (big, slow and terrible), drafted Caputi (big and slow), drafted Jeffrey (pretty big, fairly smart and pretty slow), drafted Hanowski (big and slow), drafted Petersen (big and slow)...

Now: signed Megna (skilled, small and quick), drafted Bennett (skilled, average and quick), drafted Archibald (small and skilled, and not as slow as Hanowski I don't think), drafted Wilson (uh, kind of gritty and skilled, not overly fast I guess...whatever), drafted Zlobin (small and skilled), drafted Marcantuoni (fast and somewhat skilled), drafted Blugers (small and skilled)...

I just kind of wonder if all this is adding up to something or if it's just the organization flushing out something it had too much of in exchange for something it didn't have enough of...

As for trade value, they just don't want him anymore it seems...they could use a PMD prospect (I don't think we have too many of those, let me ask the board...) or a center prospect...honestly, after the investment the Stars have made on drafting D in the past couple drafts (Oleksiak, Bystrom, Lindell, Sinitsyn is a super sleeper, etc.), they probably could use a center prospect. Though, on paper, it looks like they drafted a bunch (Gemel Smith, Mike Winther, Devin Shore, etc.) I'm not sure any of them project to be centers at the pro level. They'd all probably be better suited on the wing, except maybe one, maybe...

I'd prefer just to give them a 2nd and tell'em to keep the change if that's the route we're going. Otherwise, it's a matter of what their scouting staff likes...it wouldn't be Marcantuoni because they have him in Gemel Smith already...Blugers would work for them (but I wouldn't do it), Maatta would work for them (but I wouldn't do it), Morrow and Pouliot are overpayment in my opinion...

The organization is coo-coo for college puffs prospects (as if you had to guess by who is in charge)...if they like Nick D'Agostino as much as I do, I'd pair him up with a conditional 4th that becomes a 3rd if we win the Cup or something...otherwise, the simplest solution is to cough up our 2nd...which most people would say, "well, yeah, of course, do that!" but I'm protective of draft picks...


You really can't figure this one out bro?

Shero said he wanted BIG BODY NA like the 2006 Ducks. So in 2006 he drafted that way. When they won the cup the game was going more towards fast paced, less clutching and grabbing (even though the Red Wings were the kings of slight obstruction that never got a call)...since then the NHL Refs have reffed the last 2 playoffs like this is 1998. So our team has been less effective.

Shero and Bylsma for the past 2 years have been drafting, signing, players for a different NHL than the game is reffed. Think Goligoski's, Leopold pick up (completely terrible), Sullivans.. etc. Letting Mike Rupp, 6'5" go.

I don't have a problem with Shero drafting massive amounts of PMD because he gets returned. However, when you have the 8th pick in the draft, and you take the 7th defenseman on the board, reach for him, its just bad in my opinion. We knew about Saad the previous year, didn't pick him, got Harrington instead. Now Saad, isn't he Toews winger already? Whats Harrington, 7C on HF? Great...


Not in the quoted: No interest in Cullen, I've always hated him though. He could be had for cheap, the Wild don't want him...

@ the quoted. It's basically a waste to respond because it's just a spray of misinformation in all directions with the hopes of distraction or bewilderment.

I guess I'll make bulleted points and hope to undo some of it...

- You have it backwards, the league immediately went to the speed and openness in 2006 and 2007 (see: power play totals, for starters). Note the Buffalo Sabres meteoric rise, Gionta, St. Louis, Brian Campbell major major years.

- The league has "regressed" (as some might say) into lower scoring hockey with a little more interference - though, they're calling some pretty chintzy stuff this year WRT to chip n' chase plays...

- I don't think you remember playoffs from the 90's.

- Still, Pouliot is not a reach. Whether you want to believe it or not because of some stupid ranking, is your business, but please stop trying to pollute the minds of others with that trite...it's a simple misunderstanding of the NHL Entry Draft procedure.

- Saad went 43, we didn't have a pick in the second round until 54.

- What does HF's 7C ranking have to do with it? By the way, he'll be a 7B before the end of the month, if that changes your tune. Which, strangely, it might for some reason...additionally, what does Saad's linemates have to do with us? Why do you think a player being on a first line some place else means that the same would have happened here? Do you think the Wild, Rangers, Jets, etc. are kicking themselves for letting the venerable Pascal Dupuis slip through their fingers. Beau Bennett, let's say, plays on the top line with Crosby the rest of the year...does Nashville rue the day they drafted Austin Watson as a result...in hindsight? I suppose by similar logic we should have taken Tye McGinn (4/119 PHI) in the first round because he's actually playing on a top line while Beau Bennett is on the third right now and has no points?
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:35 pm

It's actually not unreasonable to think Maatta is the most attractive piece to move in a deal, in terms of return + expendability to our current D-corps. You've got a similar two-way player in Despres who can already contribute at the NHL level, and Dumoulin is another two-way guy (though perhaps slightly skewered towards D more than O) playing great in the AHL.

Matta is a two-way guy who is more on the offensive side of things (see: Despres), so at the moment, he looks to be the guy who'd hurt us the least if moved, while still having a great value to add to a quality return. In 10 years, who knows, but that's how it shakes out right now.
Last edited by meecrofilm on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:37 pm

sil wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
sil wrote:Yeah, I'm not sold on Saad proving to be the better player over Harrington in the long run.

Long run doesn't matter, Saad got to the NHL first therefore he is better. What the heck were you thinking Shero :face:


I'm not one to use the facepalm much, but I do know this...Saad and Harrington both look like pretty solid players...the one big difference is that in the year leading up to the draft, Saad consistently went ( v ) on the draft board (wasn't he considered a top-5 pick at one point???), and Harrington consistently went ( ^).

Also, in my less-educated opinion, Harrington is pretty much the only untouchable prospect we have right now from an asset standpoint. A trade involving him better fetch quite a return.


Saad was on his way down yes, and many teams said they came away with only an average interview with him...weren't overly excited about him in general...skill set or after interview/combine. Seen as the ubiquitous "solid" but can fall down a draft board because he doesn't stick out in any one area.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:40 pm

sil wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
sil wrote:Yeah, I'm not sold on Saad proving to be the better player over Harrington in the long run.

Long run doesn't matter, Saad got to the NHL first therefore he is better. What the heck were you thinking Shero :face:


I'm not one to use the facepalm much, but I do know this...Saad and Harrington both look like pretty solid players...the one big difference is that in the year leading up to the draft, Saad consistently went ( v ) on the draft board (wasn't he considered a top-5 pick at one point???), and Harrington consistently went ( ^).

Also, in my less-educated opinion, Harrington is pretty much the only untouchable prospect we have right now from an asset standpoint. A trade involving him better fetch quite a return.


If I'm not mistaken I think Harrington was originally ranked in the 1st round at the beginning of the year as well, but dropped after his offensive didn't develop as hoped.

I think he was still considered somewhat of a "reach" even at 54th overall or wherever we took him. If we and DET pass on him (I think I heard they were interested as well) he likely goes in the 3rd round.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:43 pm

I'll admit that I was initially unhappy with the selection as well...I thought we could have taken him in the third round because he wasn't really gaining a lot of steam offensively and he's tough to notice unless you're looking for him...I quickly warmed up to the pick after watching Harrington the next season...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby joe icepick on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:50 pm

Little quiz for you guys. Highest scoring goalie of alltime.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:53 pm

joe icepick wrote:Little quiz for you guys. Highest scoring goalie of alltime.


Barrasso then Brodeur. I think Tommy had 48 and Marty's at like 42 or 43...? Something like that...
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby joe icepick on Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:55 pm

Yep, He could handle the puck.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby tfrizz on Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:14 pm

mikey287 wrote:I'll admit that I was initially unhappy with the selection as well...I thought we could have taken him in the third round because he wasn't really gaining a lot of steam offensively and he's tough to notice unless you're looking for him...I quickly warmed up to the pick after watching Harrington the next season...


It's exactly what excites me about Harrington as a prospect for the Pens. He's a stark contrast to the more offensive defenseman mold they've been following with guys like Morrow and Pouliot. He still has room to grow his offensive game, but it's his defensive play that could really pay off for the Pens.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:09 pm

I guess I never really understand when people say we won the cup with grinders and big bodies because it was supposedly a much more open game at that time. Yet we saw that is more open of a game so we retooled our FA signings and drafts to fit this new open NHL (that we just won with a different type of roster??). And now that the game isnt as open we are somehow screwed and we need a roster just like the one we had when we won the cup, which we drafted away from because the league was so open?

Follow me? It wasnt the NHL, it was HCDB and his system. Fedetenko and Talot helped us win a cup, then were terrible, then left, and are now back to exactly what we had in them. They are drafting to fit a system.

I am not here to argue his system, I am saying that during the height of the NHL "open" style we drafted Staal over Toewes, traded for Gill, signed Eaton, signed Fedetenko, traded for Guerin, signed Cooke, signed Adams, signed Orpik to an extension. Now we go the exact opposite of that because of the league - yet that roster was the exact opposite of what you would theoretically need in that open style league.

Open Style - we draft and sign for grit
Less Open - we draft and sign for speed and skill.

Makes no sense. Has to be the system, because HCRS and his style changed exactly when......(well you can fill in the blank here).
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:13 pm

You'll remember that they won the cup after "Open Style - we draft and sign for grit", so - in the context of the above argument - I'm not sure why you are too worried about Shero doing something that you believe to be opposing the trend of the league.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby pens_CT on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:27 pm

What about Nick Foligno? I know he was just acquired by Columbus but that was with the old GM. He's probably capable of putting up 15 to 20 goals/40-50 points in a top 6 role with the Pens, and isn't afraid to use the body. Kind of Kunitz-like in his abilities.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:32 pm

columbia wrote:You'll remember that they won the cup after "Open Style - we draft and sign for grit", so - in the context of the above argument - I'm not sure why you are too worried about Shero doing something that you believe to be opposing the trend of the league.


Who said I was worried? I just dont get when people use it as an argument in our personnel style. To me we drafted to fit a style/system (again I am not arguing whether that was right or wrong and some guys had to go because of the cap) but before Bylsma we drafted Staal, signed Eaton, trade for Gill etc.

After Bylsma we did the exact opposite. It had nothing to do with the direction of the league, because when he originally went with his personnel group it was big and tough during the most open style season (s) and we won a cup.

So I dont get the argument at all.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:38 pm

Ok.
Then I'm sure what you're saying, because you said his approach made no sense in the above post.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:45 pm

columbia wrote:Ok.
Then I'm sure what you're saying, because you said his approach made no sense in the above post.


sorry if came across like that, it made no sense in the context of people claiming we went a different direction because of the league is what I was trying to say.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby columbia on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:46 pm

Aha...gotcha.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:02 pm

pens_CT wrote:What about Nick Foligno? I know he was just acquired by Columbus but that was with the old GM. He's probably capable of putting up 15 to 20 goals/40-50 points in a top 6 role with the Pens, and isn't afraid to use the body. Kind of Kunitz-like in his abilities.


Untouchable from a Columbus standpoint or close to it.
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Re: Wingers 12-13 season (speculation, name drops, etc)

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:20 pm

Foligno has been one of their best guys this year. Definitely a guy they're going to try and build around (amongst others)
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