Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:30 pm

He had a secondary assist last night, but the more impressive thing was that he had to point out to Bobby Ryan that their guy was getting out of the box so Ryan could spring him on a breakaway
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Gaucho on Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:49 pm

Tangradi gets a lot of ice time on a lousy team.

So what.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby mikey287 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:01 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:
mikey287 wrote:Was watching the Buffalo/Winnipeg game, thought, "hmm, Tangradi is out there a lot it seems..."

At this point in the tilt, no Jet forward has more even strength ice time than Eric Tangradi.

Not saying anything about that, just saying it because I'm not sure how much I'll ever get to say that...also add that to the "better than Ryan Stone" list. Oh Generation X...

Do you think the Jets are going to give him the Chris Bourque treatment and if nothing surfaces cut bait at the end of the season?


When you bring in a younger guy, a younger project like Tangradi and you're a team that really only hopes to be average this season, you give him a shot. It's worth a try. You're still in the "honeymoon" period in Winnipeg, so the fans won't be too unhappy with a loser quite yet, you have some roster turnover coming up probably, and you have a lot of room to tinker.

So, you put Tangradi in a role and evaluate him. Kevin Cheveldayoff and his trusted companions are looking at #27 every night...they don't care about 15 points in 17 games or 2 points in 12 or anything like that...they just want to see if that's a kid that a) has potential to be a Winnipeg Jet b) is an upgrade over the current core of players c) who, if anyone, he makes expendable at the deadline/offseason

It's good methodology for a team like Winnipeg. Look right now, Redmond and Postma are up there and you look at those guys and you go, "ok, Postma can skate really well, he's fitting in nicely...I think we can move on from Ron Hainsey..." or maybe you take calls from another team that likes Postma even more and you use him to fill another role...if the staff doesn't believe in a player, you're looking at your pro scouts and going, "ok, look, this stick figure Postma isn't cutting it" or "this sack of dog vomit Tangradi isn't gonna make us better, Christ, he's slower than Antropov" so you add it to the organizational "wish list" for the deadline or the offseason.

Look at Columbus, they lost Rick Nash. We knew that was happening, somehow, some way. Look at the underrated acquisition they made...there aren't a lot of power forwards out there, but how about swapping Marc Methot for Nick Foligno. Identifying a future weakness - a big body that can win board battles, he has skill, he plays both ways, he's in your face...sure he doesn't have Nash's skill set, that's hard to match, I mean, if he had Nash's skill he wouldn't be acquirable...they auditioned some guys like David Savard last year, they felt they could get defense out of him, physicality can be found in a dime store bin, it was a good move by them. They got a look at what was coming, they were impressed by it, they can start moving forward...

If I'm Ottawa, I'm probably gonna start doing the same thing. System audit. Weircioch, Boroweicki, get those guys involved more, see what you have...down the middle, maybe you're looking at Colin Greening, what does Zack Smith do in increased minutes, how about Kyle Turris as a #1 center...

It's tough when you're a team in a window to contend, but sometimes you just need that time to take a minute and find out exactly what you have...and when you can't, sometimes you lose it for nothing, like the Wings have done over the years...such a deep team, that sometimes it's almost to a fault...Tomas Kopecky could never really break in with them, Quincey was lost on waivers and then re-acquired, Matthias is starting to blossom in Florida, Ritola was lost on waivers (no big deal I suppose), Hudler got a decent look and left...alright not big names, but maybe you didn't have to use a 2nd round pick to add a depth winger because you had Kopecky this whole time. Hell, they used a 1st round pick just to get Kyle Quincey back after drafting him in the 4th round and losing him on waivers. Now, obviously, that's a successful team and I'm not knocking what they've done at all, but sometimes it helps if you can take a minute and go, "ok, this is what we have..."
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby tfrizz on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:09 pm

Pavel Bure wrote:I really don't understand people still complaining about Tangradi. He didn't fit here, he didn't make an effort in the chances he received, he needed to go. If he finds success somewhere else great but when you're trying to say Shero made a mistake or he was mismanaged in a roundabout way and the only thing you can come up with is hits then you're just in denial.


I'm more concerned with the way HCDB manages (or mismanages?) young players. It's no different with Despres going in and out of the lineup. I hate seeing young players being scratched or underutilized instead of developing with larger roles in the minors.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Pavel Bure on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:17 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I really don't understand people still complaining about Tangradi. He didn't fit here, he didn't make an effort in the chances he received, he needed to go. If he finds success somewhere else great but when you're trying to say Shero made a mistake or he was mismanaged in a roundabout way and the only thing you can come up with is hits then you're just in denial.


I'm more concerned with the way HCDB manages (or mismanages?) young players. It's no different with Despres going in and out of the lineup. I hate seeing young players being scratched or underutilized instead of developing with larger roles in the minors.

Despres was scratched for one game. Rookies get burnt out easily all the time and just don't know it. Taking a game off and watching from the press box isn't the worst thing for a rookie. He's played in 13 games this season. It's not like he's put in and pulled out. I'm fine with having a rookie sit for extra toughness (as was the thought with Buffalo) or just to get a rest and see the game from a different view. That's not mismanaging talent.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:25 pm

tfrizz wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I really don't understand people still complaining about Tangradi. He didn't fit here, he didn't make an effort in the chances he received, he needed to go. If he finds success somewhere else great but when you're trying to say Shero made a mistake or he was mismanaged in a roundabout way and the only thing you can come up with is hits then you're just in denial.


I'm more concerned with the way HCDB manages (or mismanages?) young players. It's no different with Despres going in and out of the lineup. I hate seeing young players being scratched or underutilized instead of developing with larger roles in the minors.


Most teams don't just play rookies for the sake of playing rookies.

The majority of the time, said rookies are playing every night because the team has no other options.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Krom on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:27 pm

Speaking of former Pens, I see Brian Strait is on IR with a broken ankle.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby pens_CT on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:29 pm

Krom wrote:Speaking of former Pens, I see Brian Strait is on IR with a broken ankle.

Bad luck for him. Finally gets a chance with a NHL team and this happens.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby pcm on Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:31 pm

Great post mikey. IMO the biggest thing separating the Pens from dynasty-status is the ability to do that type of organizational eval / audit on the fly. It's what the regular season should be for. There's no race to the playoffs here; regular season for a team like the Pens is all about finding your game and auditioning for a spot to compete in the season that matters.

I wish the Pens tinkered a bit more. They're doing it now with Bennett, which is great. But that's been the plan all along, whereas it doesn't seem like the organizations wants to try things out on the fly and adapt to what works / what doesn't. Instead, it's almost like they develop their plan for the year in the offseason, and then pretty much stick with it, given slight variance for unavoidable alterations.

This has been Blysma's biggest critique, and now I'm seeing it apply to personnel decisions as well as game-tactics.

In order to remain at the top year-in and year-out, a team has to develop its own talent as a cheaper alternative to guys who price themselves out. Guys need to be replaceable. Its the system / the team / the organization that matters. Look at the Devils. They lose player after player and still find a way to compete at the highest levels. The Pens can do better than that, because of their generational talent. But the supporting cast needs to be constantly tested and reinvented along the way.

Not to make this post about Tangradi, but to use him as an example... If he goes on to develop into a solid secondary forward, it makes me scratch my head why Shero went out and signed Tanner Glass. Is he a better player than Tangradi? Obviously right now. But the difference is not so great to make up for the opportunity cost of developing ET on the 4th line.

It's not a perfect example, as there other factors here; but my gist is that the potential benefits of playing & developing young players are much higher than the upgrade in ability from an established bottom 6 forward or bottom pairing D to a young guy. Worst case scenario, the young guy lays an egg and you fill that role mid season. Yes the cost is greater than signing him in the offseason, but I argue that potential benefit from that young player developing outweighs those costs (you win some, you lose some) in the long run.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Steve Dave on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:02 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Krom wrote:Speaking of former Pens, I see Brian Strait is on IR with a broken ankle.

Bad luck for him. Finally gets a chance with a NHL team and this happens.


Where was Cooke when this happened?
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Pavel Bure on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:16 pm

Tanner Glass is here cause he PKs, was near the league lead in hits, plays at an NHL level embracing his role without a sense of entitlement, and is hard to play against. For 1.1M it's not like he's breaking the bank.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:44 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
tfrizz wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:I really don't understand people still complaining about Tangradi. He didn't fit here, he didn't make an effort in the chances he received, he needed to go. If he finds success somewhere else great but when you're trying to say Shero made a mistake or he was mismanaged in a roundabout way and the only thing you can come up with is hits then you're just in denial.


I'm more concerned with the way HCDB manages (or mismanages?) young players. It's no different with Despres going in and out of the lineup. I hate seeing young players being scratched or underutilized instead of developing with larger roles in the minors.


Most teams don't just play rookies for the sake of playing rookies.

The majority of the time, said rookies are playing every night because the team has no other options.


To further my point:

Alex Galchenyuk. You'd say he's pretty good, with 10 points in 16 games, no?

He hasn't played more than 15 minutes a game. Would you say he is being "underutilized", or that he's making the most of his opportunity?

I'd wager it's the latter. Something players like Tangradi, Jeffrey, etc. haven't been doing this year.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Pitts on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:19 am

MRandall25 wrote:Alex Galchenyuk. You'd say he's pretty good, with 10 points in 16 games, no?

He hasn't played more than 15 minutes a game.

Conacher got 14 and change tonight
Tarasenko got just over 12
Yakupov thru 2 periods has 10:35

seems to be a trend with rookies.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby tfrizz on Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:54 am

Pitts wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Alex Galchenyuk. You'd say he's pretty good, with 10 points in 16 games, no?

He hasn't played more than 15 minutes a game.

Conacher got 14 and change tonight
Tarasenko got just over 12
Yakupov thru 2 periods has 10:35

seems to be a trend with rookies.


Galchenyuk averages 1:53 PPTOI/game.
Conacher averages 2:30 PPTOI/game.
Tarasenko averages 2:35 PPTOI/game.
Yakupov averages 3:03 PPTOI/game.

Bennett has a grand total of 1:50 PPTOI.


The 4 names you mentioned do play protected minutes, but they're given the opportunity to get involved offensively and that's something that isn't happening with Bennett. If he's only limited to 12 minutes a night, that's fine... but those need to be top 6 minutes, not spending them out there with the combined 8 points of Sutter and Kennedy.


FWIW, Bennett is tied with Galchenyuk and Tatar for 53rd among all rookies in average time on ice. Link
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:33 am

Actually, Galchenyuk plays on the 3rd line with Brandon Prust and Erik Cole (source: the Daily Faceoff)
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby tfrizz on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:48 am

MRandall25 wrote:Actually, Galchenyuk plays on the 3rd line with Brandon Prust and Erik Cole (source: the Daily Faceoff)


He's played most of the season with Gallagher and Cole (two rookies and a vet). Prust moved up since Gallagher is out with a concussion.

My issue isn't with playing on the 3rd line itself, it's Bennett playing on the Pens' third line since they haven't been able to generate anything all season - and that goes for Cooke, too. Neal alone has more points than Cooke-Sutter-Kennedy combined.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:57 am

I dislike making their only legit top 6 prospect earn his time on the second line. It's not like Cooke has done anything for that line.

With all the line shuffling though, it doesn't really matter.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:58 am

So? They aren't going to hand him a spot in the Top 6 unless he shows he's a better option than what they have (and it hasn't happened yet).

As for his PP time, most teams don't have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal on their PP. You want those guys out there as long as possible.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby joopen on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:05 am

MRandall25 wrote:So? They aren't going to hand him a spot in the Top 6 unless he shows he's a better option than what they have (and it hasn't happened yet).

As for his PP time, most teams don't have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal on their PP. You want those guys out there as long as possible.


Our 2 PP units... All Lefty is PP1. All Righty is PP2. Its actually funny to watch.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Luckybreak on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:13 am

MRandall25 wrote:So? They aren't going to hand him a spot in the Top 6 unless he shows he's a better option than what they have (and it hasn't happened yet).

As for his PP time, most teams don't have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal on their PP. You want those guys out there as long as possible.


Is this the best time or environment for a rookie to 'show he's a better option'? Playing on an already discombobulated 3rd line can't be easing Bennett into the NHL, and when he proves himself worthy what's he going to learn from Geno other than a barrage of Russian swearwords from the frustrated turnover machine? Surely its time to get Kunitz back with Geno and give Bennett and Boychuck some spins with Sid prior to the trade deadline?
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby The Snapshot on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:15 am

Too much hand wringing over Bennett's ice time right now. He looks a little overwhelmed to me in terms of the speed of the play, so I'm ok with his minutes being mostly 3rd line and then some time with Malkin and Neal in spots.

I think he is being handled well, because he doesn't seem 100% confident yet and that would only be exacerbated if he's pressing on the Malkin line every shift. Let him play some less than critical minutes and get himself a point or two - see what that does for his confidence.

As his confidence grows, so do his minutes. Remember, he hasn't played a lot of Hockey in the last few years, so his growth curve is not the same as some of the other rooks mentioned. Conacher has hit the skids though.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:18 am

Why are people in such a hurry to Latendresse Bennet? There are potential massive downsides to rushing a good prospect into big mins.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby Malkamaniac on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:31 am

MRandall25 wrote:So? They aren't going to hand him a spot in the Top 6 unless he shows he's a better option than what they have (and it hasn't happened yet).

As for his PP time, most teams don't have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal on their PP. You want those guys out there as long as possible.


Well, they know there's a hole on the second line. Breaking up a 3rd line that did it's job to a high standard to make a guy earn minutes when he and everyone else knows there's a hole there is kinda wonky.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby DesertPenguin on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:52 pm

I think all the pieces are starting to come together.

Matt Niskanen going down gave us a chance to look at Despres and Bortuzzo in increased roles and we liked what we saw. It makes Nisky a little more expendable. He doesn't have a long term place on this team given the guys coming through the system, so painful as it is, it makes sense to move him now while he has value and we have leverage.

We have ties with Minn via their coach Mike Yeo, who knows Nisky and knows whether he can use him. Nisky is also a Minnesota guy, which apparently that team is all about signing (Suter, Parise). I feel bad moving the guy after he bought into Pens hockey so well and ressurected his career, but at least we are sending him home. This is almost like a mini version of the Whitney trade. Gonch went down, which let us get a long look at our other guys. When Gonch came back, Whitney was expendable.

Eaton is getting looked at as a #7D. If they think he can eat popcorn for us in the press box and fill in for injury every once in a while, I think the deal gets done. We also have Dumoulin waiting for his shot, and can always move for a rental at the deadline if it falls apart. A rental on D makes more sense than at F, considering the defensive depth coming up to replace that rental next season.

You have to give to get, and this has the look of a RS "Hockey Trade" to me. I would not at all be surprised to see a Seto for Niskanen deal in the next few days to plant on Geno's LW, or else go with Crosby to move Kunitz back.

EDIT: Yeo was gone by the time we got Nisky. Still, he has roots with this organization, and Nisky is a hometown Minn guy
Last edited by DesertPenguin on Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ray Shero scouting Minnesota/Avalanche game??

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:59 pm

Wait. How does Mike Yeo know Niskanen?
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