Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:57 am

shmenguin wrote:We've been through this before but ZM is perfectly acceptable as a 5/6 getting insulated ES minutes and a ton of PK minutes. The staff didn't think Eaton's relative softness was a deal breaker, so I think michalek would certainly have a place on this team.


Except he wasn't used that way, and his salary was to be on a "shut-down" pair. The brass obviously agreed that he wasn't what they thought he was, and the Coyotes know he fit their system.

Plus, we already have conjecture here as to whether or not Despres and Bortuzzo are getting enough time, and Engelland is one of the few guys who will clear the crease if he can get there, so that to me makes Michalek a PK only guy. Do we dress 7 to watch him lay on his back in the crease?

As for Eaton, he is the same as Boychuk, Tangradi and now Bennett. He is a "free" chance at something that MIGHT work in a specific role - but at least that role is as a veteran 7th or 8th D.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:05 pm

meow wrote:
Fire0nice228 wrote:Just because we won 7-6 doesnt mean all is good in Penguin land..

get a winger for Sid

Look at the league leaders in points. Someone you might know is number three.


Was scoring on Sid's line EVER a problem?

Guys who played well:

- 16 - I think he's starting to get to know these guys, finally. Proves he needs at least one skill player on his line, and Cookie is enough of a shooter for them to be effective.
- 47 - Looks cool beyond his years most nights. Never a guy that you see on the other guy's highlight reel routinely.
- 4 - Team with the last change usually gets the best of the bottom paid, but I think he battled reasonably well. 19 minutes last night.
- 87 - I think its Sid that creates matchup problems on the road. When he can get minutes against a 3rd pair... woo. Lights out in the 3rd last night, #2 in TOI.
- 92 - Some nice saves last night. Good to come back and get a W even when your defense lets multiple bogies around your crease.

I think everyone knows the lowlights from last night - 44, 48. I think Brooksy was exposed last night in the 22 minutes he put in, and TK needs to see the bench on Monday and give BB the minutes he's earned with his effort level.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby shmenguin on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:07 pm

BB should definitely start getting all those meaty TK minutes. :lol:
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby penny lane on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:08 pm

I hope this sutter goal makes him now officially part of the team. It should been the one to tie up the flyers.Coach Disco, why have letang and day pray together to begin the season, but not last evening. Letang and Martin have zero simalarities in hockey except wearing skates. Maybe Niskanan and Brooks ?
Coach Disco, lucky for the pens, Carey Price fell apart when he didn't see Flower in goal ;)
Coach Disco, It was the right move to put the 1st line back together. Sid and Koon did all to stop the streak and get these 2 points.

thanks Matt Cooke 2 random goals that were clutch.
Craig Adams; spirit is willing, but the body can't keep up on PK.

More speed and size needed sprinkle through the line up if the pens are serious about competing with flyers, bruins, and the wicked west
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Gaucho on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:09 pm

Pitt87 wrote:- 92 - Some nice saves last night. Good to come back and get a W even when your defense lets multiple bogies around your crease.



Nothing wrong with his performance?
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:11 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Kovy27 wrote:
Last 3 years --
82 games, 3 goals, 16 assists, +3, 173 blocked shots
56 games, 0 goals, 10 assists, +9, 133 blocked shots
21 games, 0 goals, 7 assists, +2, 58 blocked shots


That's michalek right? He would unquestionably help this team this year.

But shero is such a sweet heart for letting him go home at the expense of our PK


Michalek made this D worse. Softer. More receptive than aggressive. He almost ruined Paul Martin by being his partner. No thanks. If we get a D, we need someone in the mold of Brad Stuart. Good skater, physical and a winner.

Not surprising Michalek fares well on a team where their goalie cannot be beaten from in tight. No other goalie plays farther back on his line than Mike Smith, which makes Michalek's snow angel routine effective.


I disagree that he somehow was an issue last year when the defense, other than Paul Martin is worse this year. Maybe him and Martin were a bad pairing together but Martin had plenty of chances with other guys as well.

He actually was a good player and had a role to fill. He was on the ice for half as few goals as Orpik and Letang in the playoffs last year.

I only responded to this because its what frustrates me about the pens, being the system or players or whatever but guys are viewed as crap here go onto to fill the exact roles they should have had here with other teams. And they do it well. Yet somehow it's always they didn't fit. Or an excuse that the other teams plays a trap, or this system or that. Maybe just maybe for some of these guys we are the problem.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby pronovost19 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:19 pm

- Body language by Penguin players was bad after Habs sixth goal.
- Vokoun's saves on Pacioretty, Armstrong and Eller are being overlooked because of the long range & lack of rebound control goals.
- The Habs really missed Rafael Diaz last night.
- I am so glad Travis Moen did not score on us. We made him and Maxim Lapierre look like world beaters in that seven game Halak Robbery job of a series.
- Gallagher kid is fiesty...gotta respect players like him.
- Orpik...we know he has those games every now and then. He made some mistakes, but they usually don't always get raked out of our net. The defense hung Vokoun out to dry, but Vokoun bailed them out with some huge saves too.
- Sutter and Cooke were the two best players on the 3 game road trip.
- PK was aggressive...Granato making adjustments and being more than just in a passive box.
- Other than Kennedy, we stayed out of the box last night.
- This is one of those games that can springboard a team; great win for team chemistry.
- Would rather take a 7-6 win over a 2-1 loss in which we were "this close to getting to our game"
- Lastly, the Mike Lange call on Sutter's game winner is classic Lange! Worth a listen to...
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Bioshock on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:20 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:-Vokoun wasn't good but the defense in front of him on most of the goals was horrendous.


I'd say the defense wasn't good, but Vokoun was horrendous. He made some big saves, but allowed at least three questionable goals. You can't expect your D to always be on the lookout for rebounds that shouldn't be there.


You can really flip it either way. Both the defense and goalie had awful nights. The goal that tied it 6-6 was just absolute garbage on Vokoun's part while the first 4 goals all came with Orpik and Letang on the ice. Either way, was an awful night defensively.

If MAF was in net last night i really don't think the script would have been any different. Just... a terrible night defensively.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby pens_CT on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:24 pm

bhaw wrote:At this point, if people can't see that our coach and style of play is going to sink this team, I don't know what to say. You can't bank on scoring 6+ every game.

Blame Bylsma's system for pinching the d-men if you want. Blame Bylsma for those long stretch passes which don't accomplish anything, but I can't blame his style of play when our defenders stare at the puck in our zone and are oblivious to opponents who are near the goal. You can claim this is a coaching issue, but at some point these well paid professionals need to understand and commit themselves to the basic concepts of defense.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:27 pm

I don't think i buy into the theory that Michalek made Martin bad last season, Martin just had a bad season that's all.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby shmenguin on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:30 pm

I'm sure they weren't a good mesh for your #2 pairing, but that excuse can only take you so far.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:33 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I only responded to this because its what frustrates me about the pens, being the system or players or whatever but guys are viewed as crap here go onto to fill the exact roles they should have had here with other teams. And they do it well. Yet somehow it's always they didn't fit. Or an excuse that the other teams plays a trap, or this system or that. Maybe just maybe for some of these guys we are the problem.


He is viewed as crap because he played like crap here. If a player plays soft in the desert and nobody cares, does he play soft?

Different system and team = different roles, so I don't see how you can say he would have ever been good here if he were used "in his role". He failed here in his role on this team, which is exactly what he is playing in Phoenix?

How is he being used differently in Phoenix, because I see a lot of their games and he looks the same to me right up to the point where the puck ends up smothered by their goalie.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:34 pm

SolidSnake wrote:I don't think i buy into the theory that Michalek made Martin bad last season, Martin just had a bad season that's all.


Martin never played with anyone but Michalek with very few exceptions in more than just last season, and Martin has NEVER played this well in this sweater.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:37 pm

Martin bulked up over the offseason and promised he would play better. It takes times to adjust to a team, Gonchar? people hated Gonchar his first few seasons as a Pen. Michalek is a good Dman but just not on the Pens. Michalek and Martin weren't a good pairing but its also not their fault if coaching forces them to play together.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:39 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:- 92 - Some nice saves last night. Good to come back and get a W even when your defense lets multiple bogies around your crease.



Nothing wrong with his performance?


He's the only guy with a GA stat line, but if defenders did 44 would have had 3 of them. Just re-watched the highlights:

- On the Prust goal, he lost Prust behind the net. Was caught watching the puck and was way out of position.
- On the Pacioretty goal, he dove at Gallagher in the crease and lost the puck. Why hit a guy AFTER he drives to the net and the rebound is already behind you?
- On the Subban goal, he had his back to the net and was marking Pacioretty as Subban slid down to the net. He didn't even see that one go in.

Could also make an argument for clearing Prust from the top of the crease on the first Gionta goal, but that was a great play by Gionta. The Dejarnais and second Gionta goals were good efforts by them also. for Vokoun... no softies, no misplayed pucks, and solid on the PK. He made the exact number of stops he needed to make.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:40 pm

Bioshock wrote:
If MAF was in net last night i really don't think the script would have been any different. Just... a terrible night defensively.


Don't agree with this at all. D can't hold onto folks without the puck. Rebounds all over means either goals or penalties. Either way, rebounds are on the goalie, and right now Vokoun is struggling with them. Fleury tends to give up rebounds too, but Vokoun tends to have them just laying right near him in the crease right now. They are simple poke ins.

Brendan Gallagher is the next Ryan Callahan. He should experiment with using the longest stick possible like Callahan and just go to the net for the garbage goals on rebounds only he can reach.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:42 pm

Pitt87 wrote:The Dejarnais and second Gionta goals were good efforts by them also. for Vokoun... no softies, no misplayed pucks, and solid on the PK. He made the exact number of stops he needed to make.


This lost me. Are you Vokoun's agent or something? He was beyond bad and has been for three starts now.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:42 pm

Bioshock wrote:
Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:-Vokoun wasn't good but the defense in front of him on most of the goals was horrendous.


I'd say the defense wasn't good, but Vokoun was horrendous. He made some big saves, but allowed at least three questionable goals. You can't expect your D to always be on the lookout for rebounds that shouldn't be there.


You can really flip it either way. Both the defense and goalie had awful nights. The goal that tied it 6-6 was just absolute garbage on Vokoun's part while the first 4 goals all came with Orpik and Letang on the ice. Either way, was an awful night defensively.

If MAF was in net last night i really don't think the script would have been any different. Just... a terrible night defensively.


Give 92 credit for a few timely saves and covering up for a tough night on defense at least enough to get the W.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:45 pm

SolidSnake wrote:Martin bulked up over the offseason and promised he would play better. It takes times to adjust to a team, Gonchar? people hated Gonchar his first few seasons as a Pen. Michalek is a good Dman but just not on the Pens. Michalek and Martin weren't a good pairing but its also not their fault if coaching forces them to play together.


This I can agree with. If Phoenix likes a catcher rather than a pitcher, then more power to them. Michalek cannot play here and I am happy he is happy. BTW, Phoenix's expectations are just to get to the playoffs. Then they can lose in the 1st round in 6 and enjoy their summer.

There are no Flyers, Bruins, Devils or Rangers in the West. That Conference only has St. Louis built to those standards.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Gaucho on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Pitt87 wrote:for Vokoun... no softies, no misplayed pucks, and solid on the PK. He made the exact number of stops he needed to make.


He gave up a ton of terrible rebounds. Again, Orpik didn't have a great night, but you cannot use that as an excuse for Vokoun's horrendous rebound control.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby columbia on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:49 pm

Rebound control isn't exactly a strength of this team.
It's very irritating.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:51 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
I only responded to this because its what frustrates me about the pens, being the system or players or whatever but guys are viewed as crap here go onto to fill the exact roles they should have had here with other teams. And they do it well. Yet somehow it's always they didn't fit. Or an excuse that the other teams plays a trap, or this system or that. Maybe just maybe for some of these guys we are the problem.


He is viewed as crap because he played like crap here. If a player plays soft in the desert and nobody cares, does he play soft?

Different system and team = different roles, so I don't see how you can say he would have ever been good here if he were used "in his role". He failed here in his role on this team, which is exactly what he is playing in Phoenix?

How is he being used differently in Phoenix, because I see a lot of their games and he looks the same to me right up to the point where the puck ends up smothered by their goalie.


He is not being used differntly in phx, the team is different, his role here was simply over expectations of being some shutdown bad ass, thats the point. Guys like him, Fedetenko and Talbot get run out of here yet go to other teams, do what they are good at and succeed but their styles don't fit wide open play. if he was that bad than Letang, Orpik and Niskanen should be gone too, and if he failed so miserably in his role why was he the only one not getting abused against Philly.

I'm not a ZM apologist by any means but I'm not sure what people expected from him. He was a known shot blocker and penalty killer which he did well. Just because the Pens thrust him into a puck moving situation and everyone expected him to shutdown every 4 on 2 doesn't make it so.

We are giving up a ton of goals but because Martin is plying better we can all say good riddance to him and claim our defensive personnel moves were the right ones even though we are noticeably worse on d, have been a part of the past 4 highest scoring games in the league, and I get to watch teams skate around net like ice capades.

We paid for a shot blocking penalty kill specialist who is good enough in his own end. That's what we got, if he wasn't Chara that's our problem not his. And if those type of guys get run out if town for making $500,000 over market value for his role well that's again on us.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby bhaw on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:54 pm

pens_CT wrote:
bhaw wrote:At this point, if people can't see that our coach and style of play is going to sink this team, I don't know what to say. You can't bank on scoring 6+ every game.

Blame Bylsma's system for pinching the d-men if you want. Blame Bylsma for those long stretch passes which don't accomplish anything, but I can't blame his style of play when our defenders stare at the puck in our zone and are oblivious to opponents who are near the goal. You can claim this is a coaching issue, but at some point these well paid professionals need to understand and commit themselves to the basic concepts of defense.


So you're of the opinion that Orpik, Letang, Paul Martin, and Michalek, who have all been proven defensemen, forgot how defense works over the last 2 years? Either they all suffered the same mental illness at the same time or there's something else causing them to look clueless. Just sayin'. This has been going on since DB took over, and it gets worse as time goes.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Shakes on Sun Mar 03, 2013 12:59 pm

Gaucho wrote:Btw, how Sid yet again received a pass in full stride with his skate before the 4th goals was just awesome, and the same should be said for Sutter's nifty little play before his OT goal.


He had to move his left skate out of the way too. And in another version, you can see him waiting for the puck to settle. All of this in about one second. So sick.

Image
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Gaucho on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:04 pm

Glorious. I can haz the same for Sutter's OT goal?
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