Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Shakes on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:09 pm

Gaucho wrote:Glorious. I can haz the same for Sutter's OT goal?


I stole this from HF. And this from thePensblog:

Image

Sutter made that look too easy.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:11 pm

His celebration is what made it
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Gaucho on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:12 pm

Awesome, thanks!
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:14 pm

I just watched the highlights. First of all, no doubt Vokoun had some problems. Rebound control was weak on some goals and the sixth goal certainly was a bad one. But he also made a lot of great saves. The defense around the net is pathetic. If all you take out of last night is the goaltending was bad, I don't know what more you need to see. They will make any goalie, including Fleury, look like garbage behind this. And they have.

Price was pretty bad too last night.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Gaucho on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:27 pm

Henry Hank wrote:I just watched the highlights. First of all, no doubt Vokoun had some problems. Rebound control was weak on some goals and the sixth goal certainly was a bad one. But he also made a lot of great saves. The defense around the net is pathetic. If all you take out of last night is the goaltending was bad, I don't know what more you need to see. They will make any goalie, including Fleury, look like garbage behind this. And they have.

Price was pretty bad too last night.


It's safe to say that neither coach was pleased with the overall performance in the respective defensive zones.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby pens_CT on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:47 pm

bhaw wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
bhaw wrote:At this point, if people can't see that our coach and style of play is going to sink this team, I don't know what to say. You can't bank on scoring 6+ every game.

Blame Bylsma's system for pinching the d-men if you want. Blame Bylsma for those long stretch passes which don't accomplish anything, but I can't blame his style of play when our defenders stare at the puck in our zone and are oblivious to opponents who are near the goal. You can claim this is a coaching issue, but at some point these well paid professionals need to understand and commit themselves to the basic concepts of defense.


So you're of the opinion that Orpik, Letang, Paul Martin, and Michalek, who have all been proven defensemen, forgot how defense works over the last 2 years? Either they all suffered the same mental illness at the same time or there's something else causing them to look clueless. Just sayin'. This has been going on since DB took over, and it gets worse as time goes.

Orpik has always been pretty clueless regarding positioning. In the past he used to run around chasing hits, now he doesn't hit as much but the other aspects of his game have not improved. My point is you could have MT back here with his more defensive system and still have these same issues if you have 5 guys staring at the puck, and not aware of where the other opponents are in the zone.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby tfrizz on Sun Mar 03, 2013 1:48 pm

bhaw wrote:Having Vokoun shut us down for years where he'd make countless ridiculous stops is causing this crap show of a year for him to seem even worse.


I think this speaks volumes towards the quality of the Pens' defense.

2005-06, NSH - 2.67 GAA, .919 sv%
2006-07, NSH - 2.40 GAA, .920 sv%
2007-08, FLA - 2.68 GAA, .919 sv%
2008-09, FLA - 2.49 GAA, .926 sv%
2009-10, FLA - 2.55 GAA, .925 sv%
2010-11, FLA - 2.55 GAA, .922 sv%
2011-12, WSH - 2.51 GAA, .916 sv%
2012-13, PIT - 3.61 GAA, .883 sv%


I know he's not a young man anymore, but even last year with the Caps he put up respectable numbers. When you consider the sudden drop off of Johnson last year, and of Vokoun this year, there's clearly more going on than just "getting older".
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby brwi on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:01 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Bioshock wrote:-Vokoun wasn't good but the defense in front of him on most of the goals was horrendous.


I'd say the defense wasn't good, but Vokoun was horrendous. He made some big saves, but allowed at least three questionable goals. You can't expect your D to always be on the lookout for rebounds that shouldn't be there.


That sums it up well. Anyone that thinks Vokoun was anything but terrible last night except for the last few minutes didn't watch the game. fortunately, Corey Price brought his "D" game to go along with Vokoun's poor effort and Pens vs. Habs in a last-shot-wins-game sort of favors the Pens.

Yeah, there were the usual 2-3 major breakdowns by team D and especially Orpik yet again, but Vokoun looked awful. Any play that develops from behind the net is fatal and he wasn't tracking the puck on shots in front of him well at all. He made a few nice stops once the Pens regained the lead, but I have zero confidence in him right now. He's declining rapidly and was winning earlier more from team performance than his own. He's been way out of position and his angles all year and now is getting burned by that.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby brwi on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:05 pm

Shakes wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Glorious. I can haz the same for Sutter's OT goal?


I stole this from HF. And this from thePensblog:

Image

Sutter made that look too easy.


Price looked like he was suffering from temporarily blindness all night long and hardly reacts on the GWG goal. The HNIC announcers were all over hime arly about not seeing the puck and floundering, and they were right. Of course, Vokoun several times and the Pens' D at other times made it really close.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby 71Aj66ax87 on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:10 pm

Image
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Mr. Colby on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:20 pm

Saw all the goals on NHL tonight like 10 times... Vokoun gave up some questionable rebounds but the defensemen were literally just standing around watching

1 - Letang was just standing there
2 - Letang let Gallagher walk out of the corner and right to the front of the net uncontested, Orpik didn't pick up Pacioretty
3 - Good deflection
4 - Letang chased gallagher around the net with seconds remaining. Horrible. 2nd defenseman nowhere to be found. And Vokoun should have had it.
5 - Awful rebound, but the D didn't even consider picking up guys. I think Niskanen was the culprit.
6 - Screened but could have had it
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Mr. Colby on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:22 pm

Starting to notice that guys are shooting into the pads for rebounds, knowing our defensemen and backchecking forwards don't pick anyone up
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Mr. Colby on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:32 pm

Just read through this thread... people seriously wish we had Michalek? That guy did nothing for me... to use a roster spot on a defenseman that does nothing well other than block shots is a complete waste.

Give me a guy that can make a breakout pass and clear the front of the net once in a while any day of the week
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Mr. Colby on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:33 pm

If this team wants any shot at competing in the playoffs, it's going to have to shed some of the dead minutes.

27, 48, 10 have to go. 46 maybe too.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby shmenguin on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:37 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:Just read through this thread... people seriously wish we had Michalek? That guy did nothing for me... to use a roster spot on a defenseman that does nothing well other than block shots is a complete waste.

Give me a guy that can make a breakout pass and clear the front of the net once in a while any day of the week


you're saying you'd rather have engelland than michalek in the lineup on a regular basis?
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby joe icepick on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:39 pm

I think they have to make a move before the next game.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:40 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:If this team wants any shot at competing in the playoffs, it's going to have to shed some of the dead minutes.

27, 48, 10 have to go. 46 maybe too.


Agree, but I do think that Vitale can play his role. I'd like to see better size and speed on his wings for the 4th line minutes
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:42 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:Just read through this thread... people seriously wish we had Michalek? That guy did nothing for me... to use a roster spot on a defenseman that does nothing well other than block shots is a complete waste.

Give me a guy that can make a breakout pass and clear the front of the net once in a while any day of the week


We have each of those and its not working out very well.

I think you are missing the point. Its just easy for people to say "he did nothing" or "we are better off without him" or "he brought down Martin". Im not saying I want him or I am a ZM apologist at all. Just that he got abused for not being a shutdown guy and thats not what he was. He isnt the type of guy to get in your face or shut down Stamkos. Mark Eaton wasnt either his first time around here, but he worked out well. He was in position, he blocked shots, he could kill penalties. He couldnt really clear the crease or make breakout passes but he was a solid guy.

All I am saying is this: How we couldnt find a place for a guy who excelled at blocking shots and killing penalties is beyond me. Thats worth a good salary. Give him #5 ES minutes, have him out against the teams top PP units, pair him with another stable guy and go with it, dont expect him to do what he cant. Having ZM skating around and trying to stop odd man breaks was stupid. Not every d-man in the league can play an open style, in fact very few can and the Penguins have done a remarkable job of proving that.

Fact of the matter was he was a shot blocking penalty kills specialist we couldnt make work on our roster. Im not saying he was great but at what point to we have to look at our roster, our system, our defensive coaches, our drafting, our FA signings or whatever the problem and say "something is wrong here, guys are successful everywhere in these roles but here".

Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby joe icepick on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:45 pm

I'd say...27....44......48.....10
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:50 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.


Talbot played like garbage in his last season here. Fedotenko stinks today and did when we let him go. Are you seriously wanting them back, or blaming their exit on the system?

So we want a guy who could play with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break one as our 5th D man because he blocks shots (sorry, he would break them all when he flopped to the ice)? Lots of Dmen in the league can blocks shots. I would say we could use one, but they should trade for someone with a less passive style than Michalek.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:00 pm

The Snapshot wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.


Talbot played like garbage in his last season here. Fedotenko stinks today and did when we let him go. Are you seriously wanting them back, or blaming their exit on the system?

So we want a guy who could play with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break one as our 5th D man because he blocks shots (sorry, he would break them all when he flopped to the ice)? Lots of Dmen in the league can blocks shots. I would say we could use one, but they should trade for someone with a less passive style than Michalek.


I dont really care if they are back or not. I just find it curious that Talbot played like garbage here but went on to be exactly what he was before, Fedetenko is older but didnt suck the few years after he left - in fact he played a pretty solid depth/pk role for the Rangers the last few years after being a playoff scratch here, Tannger Glass is the exact opposite as he played that role fine and was "what we needed" but pretty much sucks here.

Again I am not a Michalek apologize but 4/6th of our d wouldnt break eggs and a guy like Martin isnt physical at all he is just in better position. Eaton wasnt physical at all, nor was Gonchar. Whether it was Michalek or someone else nobody seems to be able to play here in those roles. I would much rather have him than half our defense right now, at least he was in position could block shots and didnt completely embarrass himself in Philly.

Orpik can break plenty of eggs in his pants, when he is checking you into the boards 30 feet away from the net as the pucks sits inside it.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:19 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Talbot got run out of here, Fedetenko and ZM did. Tanner Glass was a league leader in hits yet looks average on his very best days here. Fact is Michalek was at the very least somewhat responsible in the Philly series. He was on the ice for very goals compared to the other d-men. Im not saying he could change things here, but something aint right.


Talbot played like garbage in his last season here. Fedotenko stinks today and did when we let him go. Are you seriously wanting them back, or blaming their exit on the system?

So we want a guy who could play with a dozen eggs in his pants and not break one as our 5th D man because he blocks shots (sorry, he would break them all when he flopped to the ice)? Lots of Dmen in the league can blocks shots. I would say we could use one, but they should trade for someone with a less passive style than Michalek.


I dont really care if they are back or not. I just find it curious that Talbot played like garbage here but went on to be exactly what he was before, Fedetenko is older but didnt suck the few years after he left - in fact he played a pretty solid depth/pk role for the Rangers the last few years after being a playoff scratch here, Tannger Glass is the exact opposite as he played that role fine and was "what we needed" but pretty much sucks here.

Again I am not a Michalek apologize but 4/6th of our d wouldnt break eggs and a guy like Martin isnt physical at all he is just in better position. Eaton wasnt physical at all, nor was Gonchar. Whether it was Michalek or someone else nobody seems to be able to play here in those roles. I would much rather have him than half our defense right now, at least he was in position could block shots and didnt completely embarrass himself in Philly.

Orpik can break plenty of eggs in his pants, when he is checking you into the boards 30 feet away from the net as the pucks sits inside it.


I'm confused by whether we need a better stay at home defenseman or a shot-blocking, passive $5M 5th Dman? I would like help on D, but we do not miss Michalek.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:19 pm

I don't think those guys are the best examples of there being a problem with the way the team is playing.

I stuck up for Talbot a lot and will never forget his playoff heroics (that extended far beyond Game 7), but his last couple seasons here were weak. He had a career year for Philly last season but based on his stats he's right back to where he was at the end of his Pens career. I pin that on him not having the motivation or whatever.

Same deal with Fedotenko. He's always carried a reputation of not always having the best work ethic. Before he was here, he was relegated to signing with the Islanders. He was very solid his first year here and in the playoffs on the way to the Cup. His 09-10 season was totally uninspired. He had to settle for a tryout the next season and that has a way of motivating a player.

I don't even see the problem with Glass. He's hitting, fighting, and not putting up much offense and he never has. I haven't watched him closely before coming here but on the surface he's not doing much differently than he has.

I'd argue Michalek DID embarrass himself against Philly. His PK ability brought nothing in that series. I think he's a guy who can and has been useful on teams that actually recognize that defense is a thing. He's probably the best argument of departed players that this team's video game pond hockey style makes players look worse than they are. But I don't think you really need to look any further than the guys already on the team. Orpik, Letang, Martin at the least have all proven they can play at a high level in the NHL. When pretty much any defenseman looks like garbage on this team, and any goalie looks like garbage behind them, I don't see how it isn't obvious that it's not primarily the players, it's an issue with the team's style of play.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:25 pm

Henry Hank wrote:But I don't think you really need to look any further than the guys already on the team. Orpik, Letang, Martin at the least have all proven they can play at a high level in the NHL. When pretty much any defenseman looks like garbage on this team, and any goalie looks like garbage behind them, I don't see how it isn't obvious that it's not primarily the players, it's an issue with the team's style of play.


Could it be that these guys need to make better decisions? There is NO system that calls for you to run around in your own end and be consistently be on the offensive side of the puck. Orpik, Letang and Crosby need to be a half stride on the other side of the puck too often. I don't know of a Hockey System anywhere that calls for "reckless abandon".

Players make decisions and reads all over the ice all night. When a player decides to completely avoid decision making and just "go", then you have anarchy. Some nights with our talent, it is beautiful anarchy, but it is still anarchy. That is not the fault of the government if jail is not an option. I want to meet the coach that would come in and bench these guys. Maybe Orpik could play wing.
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Re: Game 22 vs Habs - Thoughts from the morning after

Postby penmyst on Sun Mar 03, 2013 3:45 pm

1. Does anybody else think Vokoun is on the sauce or perhaps drugs?

I can't remember his play on other teams specifically, but dammit if he doesn't look like he's in slow motion lethargic mode out there. It's shockingly weird. Is he really out of shape or something?

That's not to excuse the Pens defensive efforts. They have plenty of culpability as well. There are simply far too many goals happening in the slot/crease area where the opposing players could have a spot of tea before banging home the goal.

2. Letang had another Letang game. Great numbers, some great plays, along with plenty of awful plays.

3. Orpik looked bad. Real bad.

4. I'm happy for Sutter to get a chance to have some real impact plays. He's been quietly solid, and it's nice to see him get some of the spotlight.

5. Why hasn't some player just taken the match penalty and beat the snot out of Subban yet?

6. Price was shaky as all get out. A few of the goals he was screened on. But some others were pathetic attempts at goaltending. Surprising seeing as he had a 1.90 GAA coming in.

7. Bennett is tantalizing with some of the nifty plays he makes. And uses his body to get physical a bit more than I expected.

8. 7-6 more run-n-gun style hockey for the Pens. Bad news.
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