3/12/2013 Bruins v. Penguins- Official Game Thread

[The Snapshot]

Man, the more times I watch the second goal, the better Sutter's hands look. That's pretty slick to quickly switch to his forehand and shoot before the D could catch up.

Great freaking win.

Yeah it feels SO good to finally have a good Sutter.

[Desiato]

I looked at my dad about halfway through the 3rd period and said "this is the best game we've played all season - working harder than we have all year and playing smarter than we have all year"

So glad it paid off for them

Even if they had lost 2-0 or 2-1 I wouldn't have been that bothered by it. It's not always about the wins and losses. I just want to see them playing the right way. It's nice that they've been able to avoid the circus the last couple days. Hopefully this is a sign that they're starting to get it and they don't relapse again.

I agree 100%. Not only was it an exciting win tonight, but one I can still feel good about tomorrow.

Something I'm really appreciating this season is Sutter's quick shot. He may not have as much total package potential as Jordan, but I think he might be a better 3rd line center. Shero needs to get him a winger with size who can crash the net and own the boards.

[farnham16]

Look, MAF was not great in any of those series. But come on, you are not being honest when you say MAF was the only reason this team has failed early in the last three playoffs. Its pretty damn hard to be good in goal when your team is constantly leaving wide open guys in front of the net and when theres a Penguin Parade to the penalty box like there was against the Flyers.

The whole team has been bad in the playoffs the last three years. That needs to change because the playoffs are all that should matter to anyone at this point.

Three years that mean nothing. This one is all that matters. I've recounted many times how much respect I have for NHL goalies, but the simple fact is you cannot win when your goalie gets consistently outplayed, and your lying to yourself if you say the Pens skaters did not outplay the opponent in Montreal and Tampa. The Flyers series was a mixture, but Fleury gave up 2 softies per game in that series, many on the PK as well - and ALWAYS at the worst emotional point in the games.

The reason I have so much to say is that I have played for many, many years and at a decent level - at least a level where the games meant quite a bit to me and to my teammates. The collective emotion is CRITICAL to hockey - more than systems and matchups and anything else. The MOST important player on the ice is the goalie. Fact. He has the ability to inject or extract confidence from 18 guys on his team.

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

The last three years means nothing? Really? So the Penguins could go 5-10 years under Bylsma losing in the first round and that would mean nothing to you as long as they win games the following season? I don't even know how to respond to that logic. Or maybe you are saying the last three years don't mean anything because you put all the blame for the playoff failures on MAF and no one else.

I know how important bad goals are and how deflating they are to a team. I've played hockey my whole life. I've played in state championship games at different levels. I'm not trying to argue with you that MAF was not apart of the reason they have failed in the playoffs recently. But he in NO way is the only reason that they have as you are trying to argue. No way in hell.

[Rocco]

http://triblive.com/sports/penguins/364 ... z2NO0MNc4B

“We definitely got to our game in the second and third periods,” said Crosby,

[columbia]

“I definitely got to my game in the second and third periods,” said Rocco

[The Snapshot]

Look, MAF was not great in any of those series. But come on, you are not being honest when you say MAF was the only reason this team has failed early in the last three playoffs. Its pretty damn hard to be good in goal when your team is constantly leaving wide open guys in front of the net and when theres a Penguin Parade to the penalty box like there was against the Flyers.

The whole team has been bad in the playoffs the last three years. That needs to change because the playoffs are all that should matter to anyone at this point.

Three years that mean nothing. This one is all that matters. I've recounted many times how much respect I have for NHL goalies, but the simple fact is you cannot win when your goalie gets consistently outplayed, and your lying to yourself if you say the Pens skaters did not outplay the opponent in Montreal and Tampa. The Flyers series was a mixture, but Fleury gave up 2 softies per game in that series, many on the PK as well - and ALWAYS at the worst emotional point in the games.

The reason I have so much to say is that I have played for many, many years and at a decent level - at least a level where the games meant quite a bit to me and to my teammates. The collective emotion is CRITICAL to hockey - more than systems and matchups and anything else. The MOST important player on the ice is the goalie. Fact. He has the ability to inject or extract confidence from 18 guys on his team.

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

The last three years means nothing? Really? So the Penguins could go 5-10 years under Bylsma losing in the first round and that would mean nothing to you as long as they win games the following season? I don't even know how to respond to that logic. Or maybe you are saying the last three years don't mean anything because you put all the blame for the playoff failures on MAF and no one else.

I know how important bad goals are and how deflating they are to a team. I've played hockey my whole life. I've played in state championship games at different levels. I'm not trying to argue with you that MAF was not apart of the reason they have failed in the playoffs recently. But he in NO way is the only reason that they have as you are trying to argue. No way in hell.

You use the word "only", not me. I said the "biggest" reason, and I stand by that because I was at all of those games. Your not even forming an argument. You seem to want to absolve him of blame.

I never indicated that it was Fleury versus Bylsma. You did that.

I actually argue against those that blame everything on the Defense or on Bylsma - and Fleury happens to be the reason they are not entirely to blame. Just like the PK would be better if you subtract the bushel of bad goals he has given up when we are down a man. Again, a really bad emotional time to give up a leaky one.

I happen to believe Fleury can be better. The other crowds seem to be convinced Bylsma can't coach a team to play D.

[Mr. Colby]

We definitely need a 3rd line winger... could potentially be our biggest need

[The Snapshot]

We definitely need a 3rd line winger... could potentially be our biggest need

And a 4th line PK guy.

[farnham16]

Look, MAF was not great in any of those series. But come on, you are not being honest when you say MAF was the only reason this team has failed early in the last three playoffs. Its pretty damn hard to be good in goal when your team is constantly leaving wide open guys in front of the net and when theres a Penguin Parade to the penalty box like there was against the Flyers.

The whole team has been bad in the playoffs the last three years. That needs to change because the playoffs are all that should matter to anyone at this point.

Three years that mean nothing. This one is all that matters. I've recounted many times how much respect I have for NHL goalies, but the simple fact is you cannot win when your goalie gets consistently outplayed, and your lying to yourself if you say the Pens skaters did not outplay the opponent in Montreal and Tampa. The Flyers series was a mixture, but Fleury gave up 2 softies per game in that series, many on the PK as well - and ALWAYS at the worst emotional point in the games.

The reason I have so much to say is that I have played for many, many years and at a decent level - at least a level where the games meant quite a bit to me and to my teammates. The collective emotion is CRITICAL to hockey - more than systems and matchups and anything else. The MOST important player on the ice is the goalie. Fact. He has the ability to inject or extract confidence from 18 guys on his team.

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

The last three years means nothing? Really? So the Penguins could go 5-10 years under Bylsma losing in the first round and that would mean nothing to you as long as they win games the following season? I don't even know how to respond to that logic. Or maybe you are saying the last three years don't mean anything because you put all the blame for the playoff failures on MAF and no one else.

I know how important bad goals are and how deflating they are to a team. I've played hockey my whole life. I've played in state championship games at different levels. I'm not trying to argue with you that MAF was not apart of the reason they have failed in the playoffs recently. But he in NO way is the only reason that they have as you are trying to argue. No way in hell.

You use the word "only", not me. I said the "biggest" reason, and I stand by that because I was at all of those games. Your not even forming an argument. You seem to want to absolve him of blame.

I never indicated that it was Fleury versus Bylsma. You did that.

I actually argue against those that blame everything on the Defense or on Bylsma - and Fleury happens to be the reason they are not entirely to blame. Just like the PK would be better if you subtract the bushel of bad goals he has given up when we are down a man. Again, a really bad emotional time to give up a leaky one.

I happen to believe Fleury can be better. The other crowds seem to be convinced Bylsma can't coach a team to play D.

I've said multiple times that I put the blame on the entire team for the last three years. Not just one player or one coach. However, the coach is the leader of the team and sets the tone and attitude of the team. And Bylsma has done a poor job in the playoffs the past three years IMO, especially against the Flyers. That series was an embarrassment of monumentual proportions. Everything from their play on the ice to the way they carried themselves between the whistles was a joke.

Your last post was the first time I saw you say that you weren't fully blaming MAF, because you didn't mention any other shortcomings anywhere else on the team. You were the one who first compared MAF to Bylsma when it came to playoffs when you responded to my post with, "You mean Fleury?"

[Desiato]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

[MRandall25]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

[farnham16]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

True, but the Penguins certainly have not done that in playoffs. So its either a coaching problem or the players aren't listening and getting it done. Which is it?

[MRandall25]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

True, but the Penguins certainly have not done that in playoffs. So its either a coaching problem or the players aren't listening and getting it done. Which is it?

It's not a black and white issue.

[farnham16]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

True, but the Penguins certainly have not done that in playoffs. So its either a coaching problem or the players aren't listening and getting it done. Which is it?

It's not a black and white issue.

Again, true. Which is the point I'm trying to get across to Snapshot, that the entire team is to blame for the playoffs failures. It wasn't just MAF or mostly because of him. The entire team and system has broken down. And that has to change this playoff. This spring is make or break for this team IMO. And the coach is the guy who will take the fall if it fails again because thats how it works in sports.

[The Snapshot]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

Translate however you want, but no team has ever won a Stanley Cup with a leaky goalie. Period. You'd sound smarter if you agreed on its impact on team defense and structure, but I'm not gonna tell you how to think.

The fact that you don't admit that the Pens still have a question in goal makes me wonder about you. I agree that the team collective commitment and motivation is a strength. They haven't been able to overcome something in the last 3 playoffs though, and it wasn't coaching.

[FreeCandy44]

Why can't people just be happy when we win?

[farnham16]

People who fight that idea just don't know Hockey. Period.

Translation: People who disagree with me just don't know Hockey. Period.

I'm sorry, but I think what you wrote is absurd. Collective emotion is certainly important in any team effort, but that is ultimately controlled by the leadership. If the system is bad, the match-ups are bad, the resulting lack of success is going to hurt the collective emotion. Collective emotion cannot be more important than the factors that predicate it.

Furthermore, the onus is on the coach to teach the players how to overcome adversity, including bad goals. Keeping the team motivated it part of his job description. And if the team does have bad goaltending and management isn't rectifying the issue, the coach has to adapt to that. The Pens certainly do not play a system designed for poor goaltending.

With that said, I don't think the Penguins have an issue with goaltending or motivation. And I think the collective emotion on the team is one of its strengths. But that's just my opinion.

Translate however you want, but no team has ever won a Stanley Cup with a leaky goalie. Period. You'd sound smarter if you agreed on its impact on team defense and structure, but I'm not gonna tell you how to think.

The fact that you don't admit that the Pens still have a question in goal makes me wonder about you. I agree that the team collective commitment and motivation is a strength. They haven't been able to overcome something in the last 3 playoffs though, and it wasn't coaching.

The fact that you think Bylsma should be safe no matter how the playoffs unfold makes me wonder about you.

MAF has taken this team to two Finals. Who do you think this team should turn to in goal should they fail again in the postseason? Because thats what you would do if it happens again right? Kick Fleury out and keep the coaches and the system?

And for the record, I think MAF should be on some sort of leash right now when it comes to playoff performance. Just a longer leash than Bylsma.

[guiner]

OMG, for the love of the hockey gods... give it a darn break. biggest win of the season and you guys are being idiots.

[farnham16]

OMG, for the love of the hockey gods... give it a darn break. biggest win of the season and you guys are being idiots.

Dude, we are having a civil hockey debate. That are what forums are for.

We are both happy they won tonight. This isn't about tonights game.

[The Snapshot]

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

True, but the Penguins certainly have not done that in playoffs. So its either a coaching problem or the players aren't listening and getting it done. Which is it?

It's not a black and white issue.

Again, true. Which is the point I'm trying to get across to Snapshot, that the entire team is to blame for the playoffs failures. It wasn't just MAF or mostly because of him. The entire team and system has broken down. And that has to change this playoff. This spring is make or break for this team IMO. And the coach is the guy who will take the fall if it fails again because thats how it works in sports.

I don't know why you can't understand that I NEVER said it is all on Fleury. He has the biggest role in it all though. That is the position he chose to play.

The entire team did fail, and by association so did the coach. My position is that the Pens will NEVER be better without a better MAF, no matter how hard they try. They have all-world talent. They have commitment. They have some holes, but none so glaring as the recent play they have gotten from their goalies.

People ***** and moan non-stop on here. People who don't know much post pictures and diatribes about team defense and that's ok because they are spreading the blame?

I simply point out that the goal of being a shut down team is not realistic with our goalie. It is also not playing to the strength of our team. We were not the Devils when we won the Cup, and Fleury played SIGNIFICANTLY better in that Cup run than he had in even the season before's run.

That should be exhibit one that I might be on to something, and for the record I am NOT saying we should can Fluery, but we should demand much better.

[shafnutz05]

I couldn't be happier for Sutter.

[The Snapshot]

OMG, for the love of the hockey gods... give it a darn break. biggest win of the season and you guys are being idiots.

Hey Guiner, I am taking shots from more than one poster here, and despite trying to calmly point out that I am actually on middle ground I keep getting painted as the "hates Fleury" guy.

I was also one not giving up on this game either, because I know about emtional swings in games.....

[farnham16]

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

True, but the Penguins certainly have not done that in playoffs. So its either a coaching problem or the players aren't listening and getting it done. Which is it?

It's not a black and white issue.

Again, true. Which is the point I'm trying to get across to Snapshot, that the entire team is to blame for the playoffs failures. It wasn't just MAF or mostly because of him. The entire team and system has broken down. And that has to change this playoff. This spring is make or break for this team IMO. And the coach is the guy who will take the fall if it fails again because thats how it works in sports.

I don't know why you can't understand that I NEVER said it is all on Fleury. He has the biggest role in it all though. That is the position he chose to play.

The entire team did fail, and by association so did the coach. My position is that the Pens will NEVER be better without a better MAF, no matter how hard they try. They have all-world talent. They have commitment. They have some holes, but none so glaring as the recent play they have gotten from their goalies.

People ***** and moan non-stop on here. People who don't know much post pictures and diatribes about team defense and that's ok because they are spreading the blame?

I simply point out that the goal of being a shut down team is not realistic with our goalie. It is also not playing to the strength of our team. We were not the Devils when we won the Cup, and Fleury played SIGNIFICANTLY better in that Cup run than he had in even the season before's run.

That should be exhibit one that I might be on to something, and for the record I am NOT saying we should can Fluery, but we should demand much better.

Of course the team will be better when Fleury plays better. But your opinion is that MAF is not a great goalie, so you think we should have a wide open system to score more goals while putting less empashsis on defense because we don't have a great goalie? A lot of people would say you should want to play a much tighter game to protect your goalie if he isn't great.

[Desiato]

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

Again, I don't think the Pens have a motivational issue. However, hypothetically, if the players refuse to listen to the coach, then the coach is still the problem. Getting people to do what you want them to is a basic tenet of coaching, regardless of the personnel. If he can't do that, he's gotta go in favor of someone with the tools necessary to work with that group of players.

Typically, coaches are hired according to rosters, not the other way around. Rosters are dictated by the vision of the management. A roster may be tweaked, but a complete remake mid-tenure is unlikely. Like coaches, management usually only have so many chances to put the pieces together before they gotta go too. A notable exception as a coach, but not a manager, was Mike Keenan. No thanks.

It's basic accountability. But that's just my humble opinion.

[MRandall25]

The onus is on the coach to teach how to overcome, yes, but the onus is on the players to actually go out and do it.

Again, I don't think the Pens have a motivational issue. However, hypothetically, if the players refuse to listen to the coach, then the coach is still the problem. Getting people to do what you want them to is a basic tenet of coaching, regardless of the personnel. If he can't do that, he's gotta go in favor of someone with the tools necessary to work with that group of players.

Typically, coaches are hired according to rosters, not the other way around. Rosters are dictated by the vision of the management. A roster may be tweaked, but a complete remake mid-tenure is unlikely. Like coaches, management usually only have so many chances to put the pieces together before they gotta go too. A notable exception as a coach, but not a manager, was Mike Keenan. No thanks.

It's basic accountability. But that's just my humble opinion.

But why is it always "The players refuse to listen to the coach" if it doesn't work? Do the players not have a responsibility to control themselves? Is it the coach's fault if the players listen, but can't adjust themselves?