Trouble in Steubenville...

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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:52 pm

mac5155 wrote:
obhave wrote:
pittsoccer33 wrote:I bet these guys, especially the one who seems to be most responsible, really didnt think what they were doing was all that bad, let alone that they were committing a rape.

Sex has been defined down so much and normalized, especially among teenagers, that what they were doing (in their minds) wasnt really sexual in nature, so it couldnt be a rape. I mean, rape, thats the morbid stuff on SVU, creepy guy in the van mugging a jogger in a park or threatening a girl in a parking garage with a knife. Not "messing around" with a friend who was trashed.


Which is a huge issue in the discussion and education around rape and consent. The discussion about sexual assault and rape needs to happen in schools. I know I never actually learned anything about it in high school, especially not the meaning or definition of consent. It was not until I came to college that I learned about these issues, definitions, etc.

The problem starts with the parents, both in the children's upbringing and the naivety that their kids "are all good kids"

I agree that it can start with the parents. However, as a society we can't always blame the parents though, nor can we control what the parents tell their children in the home. We can, however, help to better educate in health classes.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Rylan on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:54 pm

Wouldn't have stopped anything in Steubenville.

But, I can see where its better than sitting on our hands waiting for the next stupid abstinence talk.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:07 pm

Rylan wrote:Wouldn't have stopped anything in Steubenville.

But, I can see where its better than sitting on our hands waiting for the next stupid abstinence talk.


You say it wouldn't have stopped anything in Steubenville, but I'm not sure that I agree. If we continue to try and bring up the discussion of "what is rape" and the meaning of going to far, you may see these kids that are described as some as "responsible" realizing their actions are not just messing around but have gone too far. Without education, without these conversations, how is anyone to know? Abstinence talks are sometimes the reasons we are in this mess. I know that is the reason my high school didn't bring up discussions about rape/consent, because it might offend our precious little ears. These are important conversions, even if they are uncomfortable.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Rylan on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:13 pm

Eh...the only social dynamic of Steubenville seems to disagree with you. I am all for the talks, but there was no way these guys would not understand what consent is. Then again, I don't understand how people don't know what consent is until college and that is a scary thought.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:20 pm

Rylan wrote:Eh...the only social dynamic of Steubenville seems to disagree with you. I am all for the talks, but there was no way these guys would not understand what consent is. Then again, I don't understand how people don't know what consent is until college and that is a scary thought.

It's scary to think that people don't know, but I'm being completely honest in saying that my high school had little to no education about rape and consent - beyond "no means no". Yeah. Scary.

There are many other issues in the Steubenville case, obviously, for example the coach. However, if we look at this case and talk about it as wider issue of sexual assault in this country, education and victim blaming are the biggest problems that need to be fixed now.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Rylan on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:28 pm

I am not disagreeing, but societal breakdown can't be fixed with one maneuver. But on the whole, the entire nation could benefit from the type of program you are suggesting, but the heavily Christian parts of the nation will be incredibly resistant to the change. Its the same with the abstinence talks though. They are refuse to adapt to society using archaic theories on how to teach the modern youth.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:39 pm

Rylan wrote:I am not disagreeing, but societal breakdown can't be fixed with one maneuver. But on the whole, the entire nation could benefit from the type of program you are suggesting, but the heavily Christian parts of the nation will be incredibly resistant to the change. Its the same with the abstinence talks though. They are refuse to adapt to society using archaic theories on how to teach the modern youth.

Yes, I realize it is not an easy fix, but it is one that needs to be implemented. It will be very hard to convince Christian parts of the nation the importance of sex education in any respect. Hell, we weren't even allowed to talk about STDs in middle school health class without parents freaking out. I would just hope that in the case of sexual assault parents would be a little more accepting? Maybe? :?
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:43 pm

^I know, wishful thinking... :(
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby pittsoccer33 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:56 pm

Too many bad things happen when there's too much booze.

In college I did some risk management courses for my fraternity and they would go over different sexual assault cases. There are situations college couples find themselves in after parties that don't fit the definition of rape as a violent attack, but they are none the less coerced encounters. A guy might not think he's doing anything wrong because shes not crying and screaming for help. She was all over him at the party and went back to his place. Of course she wants to even if she says shes not sure - girls like to play hard to get, right?

Meanwhile if that guy was sober watching what he was doing he'd be mortified that he treated someone that way.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:09 pm

Why do these high school kids have booze, anyway?
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:11 pm

Note: not saying they did this because of booze. Just a general question.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Pitt87 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:15 pm

Uh... is that a serious question?
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:19 pm

Pitt87 wrote:Uh... is that a serious question?


Well, they had to have gotten it somewhere, right?

Underage drinking, amongst other things, led to the rape. Where was a responsible adult?
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:19 pm

I also think it's EXTREMELY important to be blatant to girls from freshman year onward how prone they can be to being raped if they drink too much alcohol. Not even saying it has to be anti-drinking, but there has to be blunt messages from people on how much risk they are putting themselves in.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby columbia on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:23 pm

Pretending that we don't live in a dangerous world is never good. You don't park your car in certain neighborhoods and vulnerable people need to stay out of sketchy situations.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:24 pm

God bless Deadspin

http://deadspin.com/why-does-steubenvilles-football-coach-still-have-his-j-455800918

It was determined that Mays and Richmond would be tried as juveniles, and were released from custody.

Saccoccia wasn't the only Steubenville coach to stand up for the players. One of his staffers told the New York Times that "the rape was just an excuse...What else are you going to tell your parents when you come home drunk like that and after a night like that? She had to make up something."

But it was Saccoccia's protection that the players counted on. One player, Anthony Craig, took a photo of the unconscious victim the night of the assault. He also had on his phone a photo of her naked. When asked by a friend if he was worried, Craig texted back:

Nah, IDGAF [I don't give a ****] I got Reno. Nothing’s gonna happen if it goes to court.
During his trial, it emerged that Trent Mays had sent a friend two remarkably similar texts, downplaying his fears of getting into trouble. Why? Saccoccia's influence.

I got Reno. He took care of it and **** ain't gonna happen, even if they did take it to court.

Like he was joking about it so I’m not worried.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Pavel Bure on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:59 pm

http://www.underthegunreview.net/2013/0 ... e-verdict/

Henry Rollins of all people talking a lot of sense without hyperbole.

It is obvious that the two offenders saw the victim as some one that could be treated as a thing. This is not about sex, it is about power and control. I guess that is what I am getting at. Sex was probably not the hardest thing for the two to get, so that wasn’t the objective. When you hear the jokes being made during the crime, it is the purest contempt.

So, how do you fix that? I’m just shooting rubber bands at the night sky but here are a few ideas: Put women’s studies in high school the curriculum from war heroes to politicians, writers, speakers, activists, revolutionaries and let young people understand that women have been kicking ass in high threat conditions for ages and they are worthy of respect.

Total sex ed in school. Learn how it all works. Learn what the definition of statutory rape is and that it is rape, that date rape is rape, that rape is rape.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:50 am

He is so on point with much that he has to say, especially with the quote you have listed there.

The Invisible War documentary, that he mentions, is hard to watch. Eye-opening, but extraordinarily difficult to watch. I will put the "Trigger" warning on it, though.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Mar 20, 2013 6:09 pm

http://m.theatlanticwire.com/national/2 ... eal/63290/

Since his defense strategy, claiming that a 16-year-old rape victim wasn't "so" drunk, has failed, the lawyer for one of the two Steubenville football players convicted of rape plans to appeal a guilty verdict, and is now claiming that the 16-year-old rapist's brain wasn't "developed" enough and his client should not have to be on a sex offenders list for life.


Nobody's learned anything, apparently.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby the wicked child on Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:57 am

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/04 ... e-scandal/

Shouldn't be surprised... but still makes me sick. Looks like it has a few NSFW words in it...
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby obhave on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:11 am

the wicked child wrote:http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/04/22/1904261/steubenville-football-coach-gets-contract-extension-after-involvement-in-rape-scandal/

Shouldn't be surprised... but still makes me sick. Looks like it has a few NSFW words in it...


Awful. Just awful.

I read a lot about rape culture, sex education, etc. I came across this article yesterday and I think it is a valuable read and appropriate for this thread:

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/20 ... g-consent/

It is about a petition that is currently out there to try and get congress to require that consent be taught in public schools. What I think she does a great job at is to outline exactly what such education can do, being very realistic about it.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:51 am

We are failing as a species if consent needs to be taught in school
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby blackjack68 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:55 am

We ARE failing as a society.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby pittsoccer33 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:33 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:We are failing as a species if consent needs to be taught in school


I genuinely don't think a large number of young guys know what it is. No means no and anybody with any kind of conscience agrees with that. The problem is when they don't say no but don't want to either. Or don't really want to. Or kind of want to.

Did she "consent" by giving you her number, making out with you at the party, holding your hand leaving, and accepting your invite to go back to your apartment? I bet if you starting asking college guys that question a majority would say yes and that number would go higher after feeding them a few beers.

Thats the sort of stuff we would go over in risk management sessions at our fraternity conventions and leadership training.
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Re: Trouble in Steubenville...

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:47 pm

if you meet someone, invite them back to your apartment and they say yes, I think a reasonable person could/would consider that consent if not an invitation to try to "escalate" the situation.
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