UPMC as a non-profit

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UPMC as a non-profit

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:10 am

So mayor stillerstahl is challenging UPMC's status as a non-profit.

Can the legal eagles of lgp.com provide some insight on this issue.

Kenny the kangaroo is somewhat aware of the requirements to be considered a non-proft. obviously a giant non profit like UPMC pushes the edge

discuss at your leisure.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Dickie Dunn on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:27 am

Another board I frequent made note that Stillerstahl's good buddy Dan Onorato currently rakes in roughly $200,000 as a lobbyist for Highmark. Regardless of the legalities of all this nonsense, sounds like Luke's just looking for his next career.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby AlexPKeaton on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:29 am

Well he is doing some good. These health care conglomerates are evil and need to be regulated out of existance.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:29 am

Or allow the city to collect some more property tax before UPMC buys up 80% of the land.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby largegarlic on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:53 am

I don't know about the legalities, but I heard a segment on NPR a couple weeks ago about the causes of high health care costs, and a big reason they pointed to was the way these huge non-profit health systems operate. So, based on that report, I don't think it's a bad idea to make them pay some sort of taxes.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:55 am

They'll probably just pass the cost on to the consumer.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby AlexPKeaton on Fri Mar 22, 2013 11:57 am

largegarlic wrote:I don't know about the legalities, but I heard a segment on NPR a couple weeks ago about the causes of high health care costs, and a big reason they pointed to was the way these huge non-profit health systems operate. So, based on that report, I don't think it's a bad idea to make them pay some sort of taxes.


Read this article and RAGE for hours.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 64,00.html


edit:

Or watch the tl;dr version:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-f ... view-pt--1
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby pfim on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:08 pm

When your CEO makes $6 million a year, it's tough to call yourself a non-profit with a straight face. Of course it's for profit, the profits are going to those in executive positions.

Legally? I don't really know. It's entirely distasteful, though.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:20 pm

I didn't even know UPMC claimed to be a non-profit. Thats hilarious.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby largegarlic on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:36 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:
Read this article and RAGE for hours.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 64,00.html


Yeah, it was the author of this Time article that was on NPR. I listened to the interview with him as I was driving my mom to the doctor's. It did not make her a cooperative patient.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:52 pm

For-profit corporations are a bunch of individual actors trying to maximize their own well-being.

Non-profit corporations are a bunch of individual actors trying to maximize their own well-being.

For a philosophical perspective, I see little difference. Walmart's employees (from CEO to greeter), of course, maximizes their well-being by making money, which usually requires improving Walmart's profits. But along the way we get some good products. Highmark is the exact same. So what if they don't have shareholders. Each employee makes more $$ by Highmark making m ore $$. We get good healthcare along the way. Both, of course, also bring along deleterious effects. Walmart might provide a shoddy product and Highmark could deny an insurance claim. Higher education is identical. Employees want to make $$ they do so by increasing the college's revenue.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Shyster on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:00 pm

“Nonprofit” is somewhat of a misnomer. It does not mean that an entity is not permitted to run a profit or that it must spend any surplus of income over its expenses. It basically means that the company does not operate for the financial benefit of owners or shareholders. Those companies do not issue stock and do not pay dividends to any shareholders or owners.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:00 pm

pfim wrote:When your CEO makes $6 million a year, it's tough to call yourself a non-profit with a straight face. Of course it's for profit, the profits are going to those in executive positions.

Legally? I don't really know. It's entirely distasteful, though.


Goodwill's CEO makes $2.3 million...

When did it become cool for the Government to renege on promises they make in the interest of supporting the economics of the region? If UPMC loses non-profit status, what happens with Highmark? And WPAHS? And what about their affiliation with University of Pittsburgh and the medical breakthroughs that come from the grants they received?

This isn't as simple as a decision to make them 'pay their fair share'.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby mac5155 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:10 pm

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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby pfim on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:15 pm

Pitt87 wrote:
pfim wrote:When your CEO makes $6 million a year, it's tough to call yourself a non-profit with a straight face. Of course it's for profit, the profits are going to those in executive positions.

Legally? I don't really know. It's entirely distasteful, though.


Goodwill's CEO makes $2.3 million...

When did it become cool for the Government to renege on promises they make in the interest of supporting the economics of the region? If UPMC loses non-profit status, what happens with Highmark? And WPAHS? And what about their affiliation with University of Pittsburgh and the medical breakthroughs that come from the grants they received?

This isn't as simple as a decision to make them 'pay their fair share'.


Well, that's just not true. Goodwill's CEO, Jim Gibbons, makes about $780k per year. And I'm not sure how one not-for-profit's executive salaries justify another's.

The court will decided the "fair share" issue based on the precedent. But you can't tell me that his $6 million is justified ethically given the tax status of the business.

Certainly though, as you suggest, there are many more facets to this than executive pay.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:18 pm

Shyster wrote:“Nonprofit” is somewhat of a misnomer. It does not mean that an entity is not permitted to run a profit or that it must spend any surplus of income over its expenses. It basically means that the company does not operate for the financial benefit of owners or shareholders. Those companies do not issue stock and do not pay dividends to any shareholders or owners.



Do you think that non profits should get some of the tax benefits that they receive then? But yeah, people get fixated on the term "non profit" and expect unrealistic things.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:20 pm

I do think that it is very detrimental for an organization the size of UPMC to operate as a non profit. I remember seeing a story about them buying up property on Baum Blvd and outbidding competing bids because they could afford a higher upfront price because of their tax exemptions. With a corporation that large and profitable operating with other advantages is not good for market competition.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:43 pm

pfim wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:
pfim wrote:When your CEO makes $6 million a year, it's tough to call yourself a non-profit with a straight face. Of course it's for profit, the profits are going to those in executive positions.

Legally? I don't really know. It's entirely distasteful, though.


Goodwill's CEO makes $2.3 million...

When did it become cool for the Government to renege on promises they make in the interest of supporting the economics of the region? If UPMC loses non-profit status, what happens with Highmark? And WPAHS? And what about their affiliation with University of Pittsburgh and the medical breakthroughs that come from the grants they received?

This isn't as simple as a decision to make them 'pay their fair share'.


Well, that's just not true. Goodwill's CEO, Jim Gibbons, makes about $780k per year. And I'm not sure how one not-for-profit's executive salaries justify another's.

The court will decided the "fair share" issue based on the precedent. But you can't tell me that his $6 million is justified ethically given the tax status of the business.

Certainly though, as you suggest, there are many more facets to this than executive pay.


Yeah, looks like I got snookered by the googleweb on that one... :oops:

In either case, its not an uncommon amount, according to last week's report from Highmark: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/highmark-ceo-compensation-tops-6m-679520/

I just don't see why we only consider fairness in terms of cashflow. UPMC is a pillar of the regions viability. Suing them and dragging them into court doesn't sound like the best way to foster a positive relationship going forward.
Last edited by Pitt87 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby AlexPKeaton on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:44 pm

The hammer needs to come down on the entire US health care industry. If you charge a penny more than Medicare prices, you are no longer non-profit. This industry is not free market in any stretch of the definition and needs regulated badly. If we only had a president with a mandate to fix this...
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Pitt87 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:51 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:The hammer needs to come down on the entire US health care industry. If you charge a penny more than Medicare prices, you are no longer non-profit. This industry is not free market in any stretch of the definition and needs regulated badly. If we only had a president with a mandate to fix this...


Medicare is covering less and less care all the time because of its costs. What if you want to provide supplemental care not covered by Medicare? Are you for-profit at that point?

http://www.standardandpoors.com/servlet/BlobServer?blobheadername3=MDT-Type&blobcol=urldocumentfile&blobtable=SPComSecureDocument&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3Ddownload.pdf&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobkey=id&blobheadername1=content-type&blobwhere=1245338641599&blobheadervalue3=abinary%3B+charset%3DUTF-8&blobnocache=true
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Letang Is The Truth on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:20 pm

AlexPKeaton wrote:The hammer needs to come down on the entire US health care industry. If you charge a penny more than Medicare prices, you are no longer non-profit. This industry is not free market in any stretch of the definition and needs regulated badly. If we only had a president with a mandate to fix this...


Charges don't mean anything. Everything is based around the Medicare fee schedule anyways
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby pittsoccer33 on Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:42 pm

Letang Is The Truth wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:The hammer needs to come down on the entire US health care industry. If you charge a penny more than Medicare prices, you are no longer non-profit. This industry is not free market in any stretch of the definition and needs regulated badly. If we only had a president with a mandate to fix this...


Charges don't mean anything. Everything is based around the Medicare fee schedule anyways


And if it costs a hospital $1000 to provide service X, but Medicare is only going to pay $900, they need to get that $100 somewhere else - by charging other patients more. What does it matter - you just pay your copay. Doesnt matter to you if the hospital charges your insurance company $100 or $100,000 if all you pay is a deductible or copay.

Thats the shifting and hiding of costs that I think is really driving prices. If I want to get reconstructive ACL surgery I know exactly what it will cost me by looking at my health plan. I therefore have no reason to "shop around" for the best price on it like I would if I was getting my car painted or having a bumper replaced.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby DropEmJayBird on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:57 pm

My biggest problem with UPMC is their insurance tie-in. I mean if you have UPMC insurance, you can't go to this local Physical Therapy place because UPMC insurance specifically will not pay them as a provider. I don't like a non-profit pulling that card. It's one thing for the hospital to refer back to itself, but I draw the line when the hospital's insurance starts putting up walls.
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby DropEmJayBird on Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:58 pm

pittsoccer33 wrote:
Letang Is The Truth wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:The hammer needs to come down on the entire US health care industry. If you charge a penny more than Medicare prices, you are no longer non-profit. This industry is not free market in any stretch of the definition and needs regulated badly. If we only had a president with a mandate to fix this...


Charges don't mean anything. Everything is based around the Medicare fee schedule anyways


And if it costs a hospital $1000 to provide service X, but Medicare is only going to pay $80


FIFY
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Re: UPMC as a non-profit

Postby Ossa on Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:36 pm

Does anyone know how I can make a donation to them? Definitely one of my favorite non-profits.
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