Fleury for Vezina?

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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby tfrizz on Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:14 am

Beveridge wrote:
malksby8771 wrote:Fleury is 21-6-0 not 21-4-0. There's a pretty big difference there in terms of its impact on the strength of your argument.
http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm? ... me=summary



I only took notice off one important stat on that page and that is the first column: Games Played.

Flower is only one in top 10 in wins under 30 games played and one of two under 30 games started (but the fewest).

I think this is huge. Thanks Shero and thanks Vokoun.


Fleury's 72.4% (29 GP) win percentage is 3rd in the NHL this season behind Emery (78.9%, 19 GP) and Khudobin (75.0%, 12 GP), and the best among goalies who have played 20+ games. The next closest starters are Crawford (66.7%, 24 GP), Fasth (63.6%, 22 GP), and Holtby (61.3%, 31 GP).

Vokoun also ranks 11th overall at 61.1% (18 GP).
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:37 pm

Who cares about the Vezina? Fleury has a cup and has the ability to win another.

Fleury will probably never win a Vezina unfortunately. He's just not that kind of goalie. He's inconsistent, let's up soft goals at the wrong time and can be mentally rattled a little too easily. That being said, he can steal a game or a series like nobody else in this league. He may let up the softy, but he will 20 impossible saves in a row.

Fleury and Malkin are similar in this respect. They live in their head a little too much, so different players show up sometimes. When Gino is in a negative mind-space, he's pretty invisible; the same for Fleury. That's why he'll never win a Vezina. But again, who cares?

He leads in the most important category of all: WINS
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:56 pm

Fleury...Vezina...wat.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby taz71 on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:30 pm

I would like him to win the Vezina after he signs he next contract extension. Same for Letang and the Norris.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Rylan on Sun Apr 14, 2013 10:32 pm

Fleury has maxed out what he is worth, even if he somehow won the Vezina.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:42 am

Rylan wrote:Fleury has maxed out what he is worth, even if he somehow won the Vezina.


He's still got 2 seasons on his current contract, so it's hard to say whether he's maxed out or not. Leading the league in wins this season, and finishing second last season, is certainly going to play into his worth. If he were to add some hardware over the next 2+ seasons, then he could certainly fetch more than his current $5-million AAV.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby no name on Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:58 am

Its harder for goalies to win the Vezina on a offensive team unless they have god like number. A great win loss record won't do it unless you have half a dozen shutouts and lead the league in GGA and SV%
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:16 am

Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:22 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.


I didn't realize a 2.26 GAA and .919 sv% were considered crappy.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:30 am

Relative to about a quarter of the league thats ahead of him, they're not great. That seemed like a general statement though.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:35 pm

Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Who cares about the Vezina? Fleury has a cup and has the ability to win another.

Fleury will probably never win a Vezina unfortunately. He's just not that kind of goalie. He's inconsistent, let's up soft goals at the wrong time and can be mentally rattled a little too easily. That being said, he can steal a game or a series like nobody else in this league. He may let up the softy, but he will 20 impossible saves in a row.

Fleury and Malkin are similar in this respect. They live in their head a little too much, so different players show up sometimes. When Gino is in a negative mind-space, he's pretty invisible; the same for Fleury. That's why he'll never win a Vezina. But again, who cares?

He leads in the most important category of all: WINS


http://www.quanthockey.com/hockey-stats ... layer=1762

He's behind Marty Brodeur among active goaltenders for career playoff wins. The other Goalies who have similar post season win #'s are considerably older than him. The goalies on this list who are his age all have half as many games and wins...if that. He's putting together a uniquely impressive career.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:37 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.


How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Rocco on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:43 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:Fluery doesn't play on enough of a defensive minded team to win the Vezina. I think Bob, Rask, and maybe a dark horse like Schneider or Emery will be in the running.


His tendency to have meltdown games that nuke his numbers doesn't help his cause.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Rocco on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:44 pm

headh wrote:
Hugo Stiglitz wrote:Who cares about the Vezina? Fleury has a cup and has the ability to win another.

Fleury will probably never win a Vezina unfortunately. He's just not that kind of goalie. He's inconsistent, let's up soft goals at the wrong time and can be mentally rattled a little too easily. That being said, he can steal a game or a series like nobody else in this league. He may let up the softy, but he will 20 impossible saves in a row.

Fleury and Malkin are similar in this respect. They live in their head a little too much, so different players show up sometimes. When Gino is in a negative mind-space, he's pretty invisible; the same for Fleury. That's why he'll never win a Vezina. But again, who cares?

He leads in the most important category of all: WINS


http://www.quanthockey.com/hockey-stats ... layer=1762

He's behind Marty Brodeur among active goaltenders for career playoff wins. The other Goalies who have similar post season win #'s are considerably older than him. The goalies on this list who are his age all have half as many games and wins...if that. He's putting together a uniquely impressive career.


What that tells me is that MAF and Brodeur have played on really good teams.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:49 pm

tfrizz wrote:I didn't realize a 2.26 GAA and .919 sv% were considered crappy.


headh wrote:How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?


Did I mention Fleury once in my post? I was merely saying wins are not a relevant goaltending statistic.

Why LGP gets their collective panties in a bunch anytime anybody even hints at the notion that Fleury is a slightly above-average goaltender is beyond me.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:50 pm

headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.


How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?


That's easy. NEVER.

Speaking of back-to-back Stanley Cup Finals appearances, Barrasso was a streaky goalie, too. And he played on Penguins teams that thought offense first and defense, somewhere well after drinking and chasing women. He once won a game after facing 65 shots. :lol:

Barrasso won a Vezina. I'm not sure Fleury will get one, but he is spectacular .
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby meecrofilm on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:54 pm

Didn't realize, Fleury's composites are pretty solid this year.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:55 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:
tfrizz wrote:I didn't realize a 2.26 GAA and .919 sv% were considered crappy.


headh wrote:How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?


Did I mention Fleury once in my post? I was merely saying wins are not a relevant goaltending statistic.

Why LGP gets their collective panties in a bunch anytime anybody even hints at the notion that Fleury is a slightly above-average goaltender is beyond me.


My panties are smooth and my goalie wins cup(s) and he's young enough to collect a few more. Deal with it
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:02 pm

Rocco wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Fluery doesn't play on enough of a defensive minded team to win the Vezina. I think Bob, Rask, and maybe a dark horse like Schneider or Emery will be in the running.


His tendency to have meltdown games that nuke his numbers doesn't help his cause.


eh - I think all goalies have meltdown games. I'm sure a few years ago there was the "Trade Miller" threads in Buffalo after the penguins would light him up for 4 goals in the first period of games. I think we've seen with Vokoun this year, that when the penguins play bad in front of you - it really does not matter whose in net.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:21 pm

DropEmJayBird wrote:
Rocco wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Fluery doesn't play on enough of a defensive minded team to win the Vezina. I think Bob, Rask, and maybe a dark horse like Schneider or Emery will be in the running.


His tendency to have meltdown games that nuke his numbers doesn't help his cause.


eh - I think all goalies have meltdown games. I'm sure a few years ago there was the "Trade Miller" threads in Buffalo after the penguins would light him up for 4 goals in the first period of games. I think we've seen with Vokoun this year, that when the penguins play bad in front of you - it really does not matter whose in net.


Which is exactly why the idea of an "elite" tier of goalies is more myth than fact. You could interchange most of the top 10 or 15 goalies in the NHL and get the same (or similar) results because so much is hinged on the team in front of them.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:26 pm

headh wrote:My panties are smooth and my goalie wins cup(s) and he's young enough to collect a few more. Deal with it


He is also the most replaceable part of the core.

Spoiler:
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DudeMan2766 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:34 pm

headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.


How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?


First off I dont think he was talking about Fleury specifically. and secondly even if he was I dont understand how the two finals appearances are relavant to Fleury-Vezina 2013 discussion
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:39 pm

tfrizz wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:
Rocco wrote:
DropEmJayBird wrote:Fluery doesn't play on enough of a defensive minded team to win the Vezina. I think Bob, Rask, and maybe a dark horse like Schneider or Emery will be in the running.


His tendency to have meltdown games that nuke his numbers doesn't help his cause.


eh - I think all goalies have meltdown games. I'm sure a few years ago there was the "Trade Miller" threads in Buffalo after the penguins would light him up for 4 goals in the first period of games. I think we've seen with Vokoun this year, that when the penguins play bad in front of you - it really does not matter whose in net.


Which is exactly why the idea of an "elite" tier of goalies is more myth than fact. You could interchange most of the top 10 or 15 goalies in the NHL and get the same (or similar) results because so much is hinged on the team in front of them.


If that is to be believed then you can interchange the top 35-40 goalies in the league. Smith, Emery, Anderson all have looked like they had no business starting at times.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Yes, goaltender has quickly become the least important player on the ice vs. positional peers. It's old-fashioned to say that "wins is a team stat" but leave out GAA and save pct. too which are largely team-based as well at this point. That's just how modern defending works today. Goaltending has plateaued, there's little difference between the 6th best goalie in the league and the 18th best goalie in the league besides the team they play for.

With only minor exception at best, the best goalies play for defensive teams, the worst goalies play for offensive teams. It's been that way for a number of years now, it's just now starting to creep into the mainstream really...
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:24 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:
headh wrote:My panties are smooth and my goalie wins cup(s) and he's young enough to collect a few more. Deal with it


He is also the most replaceable part of the core.

Spoiler:
Image


He completely steals one game per series.
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