Fleury for Vezina?

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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:36 pm

DudeMan2766 wrote:
headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:Wins are a team statistic. If you put up a lot of Ws but have crappy numbers, your team is winning in spite of you, not because of you.


How often does a team win a Stanley Cup or make back to back Cup Finals in spite of their goalie?


First off I dont think he was talking about Fleury specifically. and secondly even if he was I dont understand how the two finals appearances are relavant to Fleury-Vezina 2013 discussion



He was absolutely talking about Fleury and I think it's low character to pretend like he wasn't. His point was that Fleury is not good and that the Penguins win in spite of him. That's fantasy land.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby tfrizz on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:10 pm

mikey287 wrote:Yes, goaltender has quickly become the least important player on the ice vs. positional peers. It's old-fashioned to say that "wins is a team stat" but leave out GAA and save pct. too which are largely team-based as well at this point. That's just how modern defending works today. Goaltending has plateaued, there's little difference between the 6th best goalie in the league and the 18th best goalie in the league besides the team they play for.

With only minor exception at best, the best goalies play for defensive teams, the worst goalies play for offensive teams. It's been that way for a number of years now, it's just now starting to creep into the mainstream really...


Exactly. Why do you think Rinne & Lundqvist constantly put up insane numbers? Why does every goalie that comes out of Boston look like an all-star? Why do the Flyers never seem to have a solution for their goaltending problems? The difference lies in the team playing in front of them. If you flipped Bryzgalov and Rinne, Bryz would be the perennial Vezina favourite and fans would be discussing using a compliance buyout on Rinne; flip Fleury and Lundqvist, and we're complaining about soft goals and inconsistency from Lundqvist instead of Fleury. Sure there's some difference in talent level, but team defense plays such a large role today that a truly good team can make a mediocre goalie look like a star (see: Mike Smith, Phoenix).
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Gaucho on Mon Apr 15, 2013 5:37 pm

Maybe goaltender is not as important as it used to be, but I'm not sure I'm ready to accept that it is now the least important position in hockey. It's still the one player that is on the ice for all 60 minutes (usually) and also the one player that can least afford to make mistakes.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:09 pm

My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby penny lane on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:37 pm

How quickly forgotten is the 2 -1 shoot out victory between fleury and lundqvist; over 60 shots.
Goalie not important; it is who fans point to at almost every lost.

For Flower; vindication comes in May and June; maybe even July. :P
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby SteelCityFan on Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:22 pm

penny lane wrote:How quickly forgotten is the 2 -1 shoot out victory between fleury and lundqvist; over 60 shots.
Goalie not important; it is who fans point to at almost every lost.

For Flower; vindication comes in May and June; maybe even July. :P


Spot on penny. The team wins, it's because of Sid. The team loses, Fleury sucks. I'd hate be a goalie in Pittsburgh, you just can't win.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:36 pm

If Fleury is average (relative to the league standard) the Penguins will win on most nights. They don't need him to be Hasek. If Fleury is bad, the Penguins lose no matter what. There is nothing more deflating to a team than to know your goalie lets in soft goals. Again, before you bring out the pitckforks, Fleury has been pretty good this season (statistically speaking). Aside from a few (2?) terrible games, so has Vokoun--he did have >140 goal-less minutes between the pipes. I'm not singling anybody out here, I was merely making a comment that holds league-wide. I'm sorry if I offended anyone that praises at the altar of le fleur.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby MRandall25 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:46 pm

What mikey is saying is that the goaltending is the least important position because the majority of goals scored in the league come when defenses give up high-percentage shots or gives a good player too much room.

He mentioned in another thread that goalies today are told/taught to stop the first shot, which I believe applies here. If the goalie stops the first shot, typically the defense is there to pounce on the rebound and get the puck moving forward. Basically, all goalies have to do is make that first save and let the defense take care of the rest.

Hence, goalies on teams who are bad defensively are typically worse than their counterparts on better defensive teams.

Mikey isn't saying "lolol flurry sux", or "The Pens win despite of Fleury". He's more saying that out of the 48 games or whatever this season, Fleury wins because the team in front of him is good. Is it possible that Fleury steals games? Hell yes, and he has. Does Fleury sometimes have bad nights even though the team is playing well? Again, yes. But those are more the exception than the standard.

It's not a slight against Fleury at all. Not sure why it's being taken as such. If you put Fleury on, say, the Islanders, he'll struggle. If you put Fleury on a team like Chicago or Boston, he'll win Vezina's every year. The team in front of him is just as, if not more, important.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Desiato on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:00 pm

To me, the most important attributes for many championship goaltenders is confidence and the ability to control emotions. There may be goalies more consistent over 82 games than Fleury, but he has shown that he has the right mix of attributes to be a consistent winner of seven-game playoff series and a champion.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby SteelCityFan on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:56 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:If Fleury is average (relative to the league standard) the Penguins will win on most nights. They don't need him to be Hasek. If Fleury is bad, the Penguins lose no matter what. There is nothing more deflating to a team than to know your goalie lets in soft goals. Again, before you bring out the pitckforks, Fleury has been pretty good this season (statistically speaking). Aside from a few (2?) terrible games, so has Vokoun--he did have >140 goal-less minutes between the pipes. I'm not singling anybody out here, I was merely making a comment that holds league-wide. I'm sorry if I offended anyone that praises at the altar of le fleur.


So you're saying that Fleury has had only 2 bad games yet his "numbers" are average. And because his numbers are average, he's just an average goalie. And that since he's average, you could find 15 other goalies in this league to take his place and the Pens wouldn't miss a beat. To take it one step further, since the theory currently floating around here is that goaltending is the least important aspect of the team, why don't we just promote Zatkoff to starting goalie and save a ton of cap space? I mean he only has to make the first save, right? Can't be that difficult? I can see it now, Zatkoff, the average goalie, leading the league in wins at a bargain basement price! Do it Shero!
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:14 pm

SteelCityFan wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:If Fleury is average (relative to the league standard) the Penguins will win on most nights. They don't need him to be Hasek. If Fleury is bad, the Penguins lose no matter what. There is nothing more deflating to a team than to know your goalie lets in soft goals. Again, before you bring out the pitckforks, Fleury has been pretty good this season (statistically speaking). Aside from a few (2?) terrible games, so has Vokoun--he did have >140 goal-less minutes between the pipes. I'm not singling anybody out here, I was merely making a comment that holds league-wide. I'm sorry if I offended anyone that praises at the altar of le fleur.


So you're saying that Fleury has had only 2 bad games yet his "numbers" are average. And because his numbers are average, he's just an average goalie. And that since he's average, you could find 15 other goalies in this league to take his place and the Pens wouldn't miss a beat. To take it one step further, since the theory currently floating around here is that goaltending is the least important aspect of the team, why don't we just promote Zatkoff to starting goalie and save a ton of cap space? I mean he only has to make the first save, right? Can't be that difficult? I can see it now, Zatkoff, the average goalie, leading the league in wins at a bargain basement price! Do it Shero!
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby mikey287 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:21 pm

Anyone that knows my postings here, and thank you MRandall for the backing and quality post, knows that I'm probably Fleury's biggest supporter on a per-day basis. From before day one (as I was fan of him in Cape Breton before he was Pens property), I was very pro-Fleury. It's not that Fleury is the least important piece of our team. It's that goaltender is the least important piece of most teams today.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Shakes on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:53 pm

Some good posts in this thread. Interesting topic.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:09 am

SteelCityFan wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:If Fleury is average (relative to the league standard) the Penguins will win on most nights. They don't need him to be Hasek. If Fleury is bad, the Penguins lose no matter what. There is nothing more deflating to a team than to know your goalie lets in soft goals. Again, before you bring out the pitckforks, Fleury has been pretty good this season (statistically speaking). Aside from a few (2?) terrible games, so has Vokoun--he did have >140 goal-less minutes between the pipes. I'm not singling anybody out here, I was merely making a comment that holds league-wide. I'm sorry if I offended anyone that praises at the altar of le fleur.


So you're saying that Fleury has had only 2 bad games yet his "numbers" are average. And because his numbers are average, he's just an average goalie. And that since he's average, you could find 15 other goalies in this league to take his place and the Pens wouldn't miss a beat. To take it one step further, since the theory currently floating around here is that goaltending is the least important aspect of the team, why don't we just promote Zatkoff to starting goalie and save a ton of cap space? I mean he only has to make the first save, right? Can't be that difficult? I can see it now, Zatkoff, the average goalie, leading the league in wins at a bargain basement price! Do it Shero!


There's something you're missing here:

You can't just throw any goalie in there. We aren't saying "Oh, any goalie in the league could be in Fleury's spot, and they'd put up similar numbers". That's far from it.

What we're saying is, you take the top 10-15 goalies in the NHL. You know, the Lundqvists, the Prices, the Rasks, the Rinnes, the Fleurys, etc. etc. These guys mostly put up stats because 1) they're good and they can make saves when they need to, and 2) they play on teams who play solidly in their own end.

If these goalies played for, say, the Panthers or the Islanders, there's no way they put up the numbers they do with their respective teams. Look at a guy like Varlamov, Holtby, or Neuvirth. When the Caps play(ed) good D, these guys couldn't be beat. But when the Caps play like the Caps, they look pedestrian compared to other goalies in the league. Hell, look at Rinne this year compared to last year. Goes from Vezina finalist and 43-game winner to a sub-.500 goalie. The team in front of him isn't that good (albeit moreso on offense), and his record has suffered.

These goalies are good because their teams are good, and the teams are good because the goalies are good and make the saves they need to make.

No, you can't throw Zatkoff in there and expect similar numbers (see Brad Theissen or John Curry).

No, we aren't hating on Fleury.

Only on rare occasions do goalies carry their team. Even then, it's pretty likely that team is putting their goaltender in a position to win by limiting quality scoring chances.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby taz71 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:32 am

MRandall25 what you are saying is absolutely true. Also given the short season there is not quite enough statistical validity for it to be all about stats. Take a look at Rinne and Quicks stats this year considering they where both Vezina candidates last year. Are Campbell and Emery 2 of the top 3 goalies this year nope. Its all about low quality scoring chances and D eliminating rebound opportunities. Imagine Fleury's numbers this year if our PK was up to Bylsma's usual standards anyone have fleury's even strength numbers?
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Steve Dave on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:43 am

MRandall25 wrote:
SteelCityFan wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:If Fleury is average (relative to the league standard) the Penguins will win on most nights. They don't need him to be Hasek. If Fleury is bad, the Penguins lose no matter what. There is nothing more deflating to a team than to know your goalie lets in soft goals. Again, before you bring out the pitckforks, Fleury has been pretty good this season (statistically speaking). Aside from a few (2?) terrible games, so has Vokoun--he did have >140 goal-less minutes between the pipes. I'm not singling anybody out here, I was merely making a comment that holds league-wide. I'm sorry if I offended anyone that praises at the altar of le fleur.


So you're saying that Fleury has had only 2 bad games yet his "numbers" are average. And because his numbers are average, he's just an average goalie. And that since he's average, you could find 15 other goalies in this league to take his place and the Pens wouldn't miss a beat. To take it one step further, since the theory currently floating around here is that goaltending is the least important aspect of the team, why don't we just promote Zatkoff to starting goalie and save a ton of cap space? I mean he only has to make the first save, right? Can't be that difficult? I can see it now, Zatkoff, the average goalie, leading the league in wins at a bargain basement price! Do it Shero!


There's something you're missing here:

You can't just throw any goalie in there. We aren't saying "Oh, any goalie in the league could be in Fleury's spot, and they'd put up similar numbers". That's far from it.

What we're saying is, you take the top 10-15 goalies in the NHL. You know, the Lundqvists, the Prices, the Rasks, the Rinnes, the Fleurys, etc. etc. These guys mostly put up stats because 1) they're good and they can make saves when they need to, and 2) they play on teams who play solidly in their own end.

If these goalies played for, say, the Panthers or the Islanders, there's no way they put up the numbers they do with their respective teams. Look at a guy like Varlamov, Holtby, or Neuvirth. When the Caps play(ed) good D, these guys couldn't be beat. But when the Caps play like the Caps, they look pedestrian compared to other goalies in the league. Hell, look at Rinne this year compared to last year. Goes from Vezina finalist and 43-game winner to a sub-.500 goalie. The team in front of him isn't that good (albeit moreso on offense), and his record has suffered.

These goalies are good because their teams are good, and the teams are good because the goalies are good and make the saves they need to make.

No, you can't throw Zatkoff in there and expect similar numbers (see Brad Theissen or John Curry).

No, we aren't hating on Fleury.

Only on rare occasions do goalies carry their team. Even then, it's pretty likely that team is putting their goaltender in a position to win by limiting quality scoring chances.


Brodeur's HOF career was a product of the Devil's system.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:26 am

Fluery has a .933 save percentage during even strength. I would say 9th in the league if you get rid of the guys with less than 10 games played.

.855 save percentage while shorthanded.


Last year he had a .915 even strength save %, and .906 shorthanded save %
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby IMFC on Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:51 am

Sort of like cornerback in the nfl. If the pass rush is there they just need to be good and make a couple of big plays a game. No pass rush and they are going to get burned almost no matter what.

So the difference in talent level isn't as important as the difference in circumstances - teams that protect high risk positions are going to be more effective.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby columbia on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:01 am

I guess they should just stop handing out the Vezina trophy, given this new definition.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:03 am

This thread makes me believe that Vokoun is unquestionably the greatest goalie of the past decade.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:48 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.


1) backpedal much?

2) Sid played 22 games last season and the Penguins put up 108 points in the standings. I'd say the Penguins are much more than Sidney Crosby.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby IntangibleBeer on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:49 am

columbia wrote:I guess they should just stop handing out the Vezina trophy, given this new definition.


I agree. And the next "innovation" should be replacing the goalie with the plywood cutout. :face:

Yeah, right. :thumbdown:
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby mikey287 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:55 am

Steve Dave wrote:Brodeur's HOF career was a product of the Devil's system.


Couldn't you also make the claim that the Devils system held Brodeur back statistically?
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:58 am

headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.


1) backpedal much?

2) Sid played 22 games last season and the Penguins put up 108 points in the standings. I'd say the Penguins are much more than Sidney Crosby.


I'd say the number of people who interpreted it as not being about Fleury strongly supports the idea that it was not about Fleury. As for part 2...sounds like you are agreeing with him. I'm not really sure what the point of your post is now that I think about it.
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Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Tue Apr 16, 2013 8:58 am

headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.


1) backpedal much?

2) Sid played 22 games last season and the Penguins put up 108 points in the standings. I'd say the Penguins are much more than Sidney Crosby.


They're also much more than MAF. I don't like to stoop to reading comprehension jokes, but you make it difficult when you can't seem to comprehend my message even though I've posted it 5 different times now.
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