Fleury for Vezina?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:24 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.


1) backpedal much?

2) Sid played 22 games last season and the Penguins put up 108 points in the standings. I'd say the Penguins are much more than Sidney Crosby.


I'd say the number of people who interpreted it as not being about Fleury strongly supports the idea that it was not about Fleury. As for part 2...sounds like you are agreeing with him. I'm not really sure what the point of your post is now that I think about it.



My point is simple. MAF is an elite talent.

I am agreeing with the idea that hockey is a team game. That's certainly not a novel idea. If one statistic, wins, is a bi-product of team play then so is GAA and save percentage.

His statistics (GAA, Save Percentage and wins included) are a bi-product of the Pens wide open style of play and scoring ability. IMO Wins are also a statistic just like GAA and Save Percentage. People are pointing to his GAA and his save percentage as proof of his ability or lack of ability. I offered up the idea that MAF wins at an alarmingly high rate at a very young age.

What is an unexplained phenomenon in this whole picture is that MAF, while playing for the most wide open team in the league, will steal games in the playoffs due to his outstanding ability. The fact that he has such outstanding ability and looks so good in an offensively oriented system is what should be discussed. Pointing to one poor playoff series as proof of his lack of ability seems remarkably inconsistent with the point that hockey is a team game.
headh
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:07 am

Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby DropEmJayBird on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:32 am

I look at the previous few playoff series.

Against MTL Fluery had 1 shut out, and was about 30 seconds from a second shut out before Montreal scored a garbage goal. I think Crosby and Malkin each had 1 goal each or so in the entire playoff series.

Against TB - with the injuries, this was going to be a tough series. I'm not sure what kind of run we were expecting, but I don't think even with Fluery standing on his head - this team goes very far. Who knows though. Not scoring 1 goal in game 7.. ugh. Certainly TB adjusted after going down 3-1.

Philly - Probably the one series where I would say Fluery did really nothing to help the team, though I'm not sure anyone did - turnover city. Pretty much everyone in this series, including Fluery, actually did things that made the situation worse. I think if you watch games leading up to the playoffs - you start seeing quite a few holes in the penguins defensive system, and I don't think there was a plug big enough to stop the water from sinking the ship.
DropEmJayBird
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,537
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby headh on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:22 am

DontToewsMeBro wrote:
headh wrote:
DontToewsMeBro wrote:My comment was in no way, shape, or form about Fleury. I made no allusion to Fleury's play, which I personally think has been quite good this season. That doesn't mean I think he is elite--he's not. At all. But we don't need him to be. Unfortunately he has also been quite bad at times, i.e., Flyers series. Which game did he steal in that one?

Wins are a team statistic, that's all I'm trying to say. In fact, I'd say that if we're going to pick any arbitrary player to pile up 'Ws' in their stat column, it's Sid that deserves it, not Fleury.


1) backpedal much?

2) Sid played 22 games last season and the Penguins put up 108 points in the standings. I'd say the Penguins are much more than Sidney Crosby.


They're also much more than MAF. I don't like to stoop to reading comprehension jokes, but you make it difficult when you can't seem to comprehend my message even though I've posted it 5 different times now.


It's not a matter of comprehension. I understand your points in a vacuum but can't reconcile the inconsistencies of your contradictions in the points that you are making.

Your contention seems to be that winning is a team statistic but Goals allowed and save percentage are not a team statistic. Anyone who has ever played a sport realizes that defense is about holding the opponent to low percentage shots and limiting their # of shots.

I think that every goal scored by the Penguins is a team goal

I think that every goal allowed by the Penguins is a team goal allowed

Wins equal goals scored being more than goals allowed

To me every statistic in this game is more a team statistic than an individual statistic

The thing that separates good from great players and makes a player elite is making the play when the "team effort" breaks down. MAF has done that remarkably often when the stakes were the highest.

He is elite and any attempt to manipulate reality and selectively pick which stats are really team stats is inconsistent and based upon flawed logic. IMO
headh
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 426
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:07 am

Re: Fleury for Vezina?

Postby Rylan on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:55 am

DropEmJayBird wrote:I look at the previous few playoff series.

Against MTL Fluery had 1 shut out, and was about 30 seconds from a second shut out before Montreal scored a garbage goal. I think Crosby and Malkin each had 1 goal each or so in the entire playoff series.

Against TB - with the injuries, this was going to be a tough series. I'm not sure what kind of run we were expecting, but I don't think even with Fluery standing on his head - this team goes very far. Who knows though. Not scoring 1 goal in game 7.. ugh. Certainly TB adjusted after going down 3-1.

Philly - Probably the one series where I would say Fluery did really nothing to help the team, though I'm not sure anyone did - turnover city. Pretty much everyone in this series, including Fluery, actually did things that made the situation worse. I think if you watch games leading up to the playoffs - you start seeing quite a few holes in the penguins defensive system, and I don't think there was a plug big enough to stop the water from sinking the ship.


This is pretty much my viewpoint on all of this. Fleury was a huge reason the Pens were even "favorites" in the series against Tampa Bay by backstopping the Pens to a 4 seed. He did his part in the series, scoring didn't.

The Philly series showed that the wear and tear on Fleury for the regular season showed (same could be said for Bryz and Philly) as he started to show signs of significant fatigue. There were analysts saying that Fleury didn't look right in practice either, so it was definitely an issue. Playing 20+ games in a row for a goalie is extremely brutal and that was a huge concern coming into this season. Props to Shero for getting Vokoun because this team is definitely better because of it.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,995
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Previous

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

e-mail