A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

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A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:52 am

One of the problems with last year's Penguins team (and also the configuration of the team before the trades) was a lack of versatility and durability. Centers who could not make the move to wing, wingers who play terrible when they are asked to move to their off wing. But Jokinen and Morrow are willing and able to play anywhere, and especially Jokinen can play all forward positions on any of the 4 lines. If Bylsma is still in the mindset (and I assume he is because his mindset never changes) of "wearing opponents down," then he needs to roll 4 lines and have players who are durable and versatile.

Letang, Sid, and Geno are great players. But they are not durable players. It's not their fault, they just miss a ton of games. Jokinen, Morrow, and Iginla are very durable and never get hurt. And they can all play special teams. The veterans seem to roll with whatever changes come about and are willing to adjust. They also tend to not take lazy/stupid penalties or lose their composure, which has been a problem for Neal and Malkin.

And as far as Murray is concerned, he is gritty and consistent, two qualities most of the blueliners lack in some capacity. If one takes a deeper look at who Shero acquired, it is apparent that he knew exactly what the team's needs were, and he went out and picked these guys off before other GM's were able to do it.

The trades show that Mr. Shero is not only an excellent GM, but a student of the game who knows his players well. Not since the Ron Francis trade has a Penguin team been improved this much at the deadline overall. RS went out and added four players who bring experience, grit, scoring, depth, and all the intangibles to his team. And he gave up not a single player on the current roster.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby newarenanow on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:13 am

Great, now Jokinen, Morrow and Iginla are going to get hurt.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Mongoose87 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:44 am

I don't think you can call Sid out on his durability, given the nature of his injuries.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:14 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:I don't think you can call Sid out on his durability, given the nature of his injuries.


Well, given the amount of time he's missed, regardless of the reason, as a GM it would make sense to calculate the percentages or odds that he's not going to be in the lineup on any given day. Just like when Mario played, if a player misses one third of his team's games over a stretch of several seasons, you should prepare accordingly. RS was proactive and now he's done such an amazing job that he looks clairvoyant.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby headh on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:20 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:I don't think you can call Sid out on his durability, given the nature of his injuries.


The guy has played in 99 out of a potential 204 games over the past three seasons. Reasons are secondary to actual results.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby RxBandit66 on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:26 pm

headh wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:I don't think you can call Sid out on his durability, given the nature of his injuries.


The guy has played in 99 out of a potential 204 games over the past three seasons. Reasons are secondary to actual results.


Exactly. My post was not intended to be a criticism of Sid, but rather a praising of Shero and the job he has done.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby no name on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:46 am

Exactly. My post was not intended to be a criticism of Sid, but rather a praising of Shero and the job he has done.


Even Ray deflected praise for these trades. It was a clear case of Morrow and Iginla calling their shots at where they wanted to go. Granted Ray was smart enough to say yes we want that guy on our team and putting a package together to get the guy. But from all accounts Shero did minimal work to get thoes 2 players. Now Murray and Jokinen were Shero moves he made work. Even after getting thoes 2 guys he was smart enough to say he we could still use another guy upfront with Sid out and he can contribute in a long playoff run. The Murray deal was also great on Sheros part, he seen something we lacked and did what he had to do to.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby rkarete on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:28 am

To me the Murray trade is where Shero realised the old Brooks Orpik is gone, maybe Brooks spent too much time watching Letang and Martin skate up ice, and we needed someone mean, nasty, intimidating, crease-cleaaring and that Borts and Engo were not likely to evolve into that role (maybe Bortuzzo will, over time). Same goes for Morrow - we needed a dirty front of net guy instead of perimiter snipers like Neal, TK (that was the hope, he shoots enough!) etc. Kunitz is the only Pens fwd w. some scoring touch + grit. Losing Cooke for playoffs a few years back didnt help either.

Shero didnt just get durability, he got character, and guys who are hungry beyond our feeble imaginations to win a Cup. Lets hope that's the edge we need, since the last few years of playoff hockey have been a suffer-fest for us die-hards! And lets all hope Sid is back soon, since the team is transformed when he is on the ice, and its him that 12 and 10 came to play with, egos in check.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Pitt87 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:46 am

RxBandit66 wrote:One of the problems with last year's Penguins team (and also the configuration of the team before the trades) was a lack of versatility and durability. Centers who could not make the move to wing, wingers who play terrible when they are asked to move to their off wing. But Jokinen and Morrow are willing and able to play anywhere, and especially Jokinen can play all forward positions on any of the 4 lines. If Bylsma is still in the mindset (and I assume he is because his mindset never changes) of "wearing opponents down," then he needs to roll 4 lines and have players who are durable and versatile.

Letang, Sid, and Geno are great players. But they are not durable players. It's not their fault, they just miss a ton of games. Jokinen, Morrow, and Iginla are very durable and never get hurt. And they can all play special teams. The veterans seem to roll with whatever changes come about and are willing to adjust. They also tend to not take lazy/stupid penalties or lose their composure, which has been a problem for Neal and Malkin.

And as far as Murray is concerned, he is gritty and consistent, two qualities most of the blueliners lack in some capacity. If one takes a deeper look at who Shero acquired, it is apparent that he knew exactly what the team's needs were, and he went out and picked these guys off before other GM's were able to do it.

The trades show that Mr. Shero is not only an excellent GM, but a student of the game who knows his players well. Not since the Ron Francis trade has a Penguin team been improved this much at the deadline overall. RS went out and added four players who bring experience, grit, scoring, depth, and all the intangibles to his team. And he gave up not a single player on the current roster.


When Sid is healthy, he plays a ton of minutes and plays every night. He doesn't have nagging or frequent injuries that are due to regular wear and tear. Comparing him to Malkin at this point is a gross mischaracterization of their injuries.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby no name on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:46 am

Jokinen I think will grow into a hugh addition once we are completly healthy. He can get you the odd goal on the 3rd and 4th line. Also if you are down in a game and want to bunch up Sid and Geno on a line you still got a very effective 2nd line with him on it leaving Sutter in his defensive 3rd line roll.

Also with the powerplay he makes the 2nd unit a legit scoring threat.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby headh on Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:56 am

[Quote} When Sid is healthy, he plays a ton of minutes and plays every night. He doesn't have nagging or frequent injuries that are due to regular wear and tear. Comparing him to Malkin at this point is a gross mischaracterization of their injuries.[/quote]

over the past three seasons Sid has played in 99 out of a possible 206 games

over the past three seasons Geno has played in 146 out of a possible 206 games

I have zero interest in characterizing injuries but..... I think I'd take nagging injuries over head trauma/potential career threatening injuries any day if I'm gambling on one or the other being a viable long term player.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Dr Rosenrosen on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:18 pm

rkarete wrote:To me the Murray trade is where Shero realised the old Brooks Orpik is gone, maybe Brooks spent too much time watching Letang and Martin skate up ice, and we needed someone mean, nasty, intimidating, crease-cleaaring and that Borts and Engo were not likely to evolve into that role (maybe Bortuzzo will, over time). Same goes for Morrow - we needed a dirty front of net guy instead of perimiter snipers like Neal, TK (that was the hope, he shoots enough!) etc. Kunitz is the only Pens fwd w. some scoring touch + grit. Losing Cooke for playoffs a few years back didnt help either.

Shero didnt just get durability, he got character, and guys who are hungry beyond our feeble imaginations to win a Cup. Lets hope that's the edge we need, since the last few years of playoff hockey have been a suffer-fest for us die-hards! And lets all hope Sid is back soon, since the team is transformed when he is on the ice, and its him that 12 and 10 came to play with, egos in check.

Lifetime ban from the Pascal Dupuis Appreciation Society.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby RxBandit66 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:51 pm

For whatever reason, the past few postseasons the Pens were not able to rise to the level or attitude of their captain and other core players.

This season, there are a ton of hungry veterans who were captains on their former team, and they will be going all out to win a Cup. Many of these players are in their 30's...even mid 30's. But it's been a short season, and the veterans will be fresh and more determined than ever.

So, RS can deflect the credit all he wants, but the fact remains that he got all the players the Pens needed, and none of the other teams were able to upgrade even remotely as much as the Pens did. If this team stays healthy and motivated throughout, this spring could turn out to be a real treat for us fans. And a touch of redemption for how the past several seasons ended.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Desiato on Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:23 pm

I disagree that moves were made for more durable players. Grit, yes, definitely, but I don't think the acquisitions were a commentary on the durability of Sid or Geno, two of the most abused players in the league. In fact, Morrow has had injury issues the past few seasons. A quick glance at Jokinen's injuries on TSN doesn't paint the picture of an exceptionally durable player based on his ATOI and style.

IMO, the biggest change the Pens made towards competing in the playoffs came before the trades: a simplified system with less aggressive breakouts and a deeper forecheck. Since the change, I believe the Pens have had the best defense in the league. The new players complement the adjustments to the system which relies less on speed and more on the forecheck. What killed the Pens in the playoffs last year were an excessive number of turnovers while playing an overly offensive style. I think the coaches and players were overconfident in their speed and skill, believing they could overwhelm any opposition.

Based on what the Pens traded, Shero was fairly aggressive in obtaining Morrow and Murray, but not Iginla. I think his acquisition was a nice bonus, but not part of the plan, as evidenced by the fact that the Bruins actually won the bidding war. Even the Bruins offered less for Iginla than I expected the flames to receive for him; a consequence of NMC and short list.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby taz71 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:36 am

Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Pitt87 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:26 am

headh wrote:
over the past three seasons Sid has played in 99 out of a possible 206 games

over the past three seasons Geno has played in 146 out of a possible 206 games

I have zero interest in characterizing injuries but..... I think I'd take nagging injuries over head trauma/potential career threatening injuries any day if I'm gambling on one or the other being a viable long term player.


I think that's obvious. Point is that Sid's injuries have virtually nothing to do with his style of play.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Defence21 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:59 am

taz71 wrote:Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era

I don't think this is "arguably" the best team. I think it is absolutely the best team in the NHL in the post-lockout era. Additionally, I think there's a very good chance that, on paper at least, this is the best team in the NHL since the early 90s Penguins.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby shmenguin on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:16 am

Pitt87 wrote:
headh wrote:
over the past three seasons Sid has played in 99 out of a possible 206 games

over the past three seasons Geno has played in 146 out of a possible 206 games

I have zero interest in characterizing injuries but..... I think I'd take nagging injuries over head trauma/potential career threatening injuries any day if I'm gambling on one or the other being a viable long term player.


I think that's obvious. Point is that Sid's injuries have virtually nothing to do with his style of play.


yeah, it's a fun attempt at insight to say that sid is punished for going into danger zones, but the ankle thing in 08, the concussion, the other concussion, the re-concussion, the puck to the face...they're all pretty random injuries.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby shmenguin on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:25 am

Defence21 wrote:
taz71 wrote:Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era

I don't think this is "arguably" the best team. I think it is absolutely the best team in the NHL in the post-lockout era. Additionally, I think there's a very good chance that, on paper at least, this is the best team in the NHL since the early 90s Penguins.


i think our defense may prevent us from being historically good on paper.

i think my favorite paper team since the early 90's penguins was the 2000-2001 devils. the only issue with them is that they didn't have a forward who was a generational talent in their prime. the 96 avs are up there too, but i don't know if they had an elite Dman on that team.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby DelPen on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 am

shmenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
taz71 wrote:Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era

I don't think this is "arguably" the best team. I think it is absolutely the best team in the NHL in the post-lockout era. Additionally, I think there's a very good chance that, on paper at least, this is the best team in the NHL since the early 90s Penguins.


i think our defense may prevent us from being historically good on paper.

i think my favorite paper team since the early 90's penguins was the 2000-2001 devils. the only issue with them is that they didn't have a forward who was a generational talent in their prime. the 96 avs are up there too, but i don't know if they had an elite Dman on that team.


Well let's see what it looks like when Martin is back.

Martin-Orpik
Eaton-Letang
Murray-Nisky

that's definitely at least the 2nd best defense we have seen since the early 90's but isn't as proven as the 2009 team.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby shmenguin on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:47 am

DelPen wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
taz71 wrote:Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era

I don't think this is "arguably" the best team. I think it is absolutely the best team in the NHL in the post-lockout era. Additionally, I think there's a very good chance that, on paper at least, this is the best team in the NHL since the early 90s Penguins.


i think our defense may prevent us from being historically good on paper.

i think my favorite paper team since the early 90's penguins was the 2000-2001 devils. the only issue with them is that they didn't have a forward who was a generational talent in their prime. the 96 avs are up there too, but i don't know if they had an elite Dman on that team.


Well let's see what it looks like when Martin is back.

Martin-Orpik
Eaton-Letang
Murray-Nisky

that's definitely at least the 2nd best defense we have seen since the early 90's but isn't as proven as the 2009 team.


it's deep, but it's not exactly rob blake and ray bourque as your top pair.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby mac5155 on Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:50 am

newarenanow wrote:Great, now Jokinen, Morrow and Iginla are going to get hurt.


My first thought.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby headh on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:26 am

shmenguin wrote:
DelPen wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
taz71 wrote:Arguably the best team we have had since the salary cap era

I don't think this is "arguably" the best team. I think it is absolutely the best team in the NHL in the post-lockout era. Additionally, I think there's a very good chance that, on paper at least, this is the best team in the NHL since the early 90s Penguins.


i think our defense may prevent us from being historically good on paper.

i think my favorite paper team since the early 90's penguins was the 2000-2001 devils. the only issue with them is that they didn't have a forward who was a generational talent in their prime. the 96 avs are up there too, but i don't know if they had an elite Dman on that team.


Well let's see what it looks like when Martin is back.

Martin-Orpik
Eaton-Letang
Murray-Nisky

that's definitely at least the 2nd best defense we have seen since the early 90's but isn't as proven as the 2009 team.


it's deep, but it's not exactly rob blake and ray bourque as your top pair.


Interesting comment. It got me to thinking about which of our defensive players are considered "world class".

Paul Martin has represented in the Olympics
Brooks Orpik ditto
Letang..not Olympics but part of international play for team Canada juniors and on pace for the Norris
Eaton...no Olympics but yes to World Championships in early 2000's
Murray...Olympics and WC experience with Sweden
Niskanen...I can't find any international experience.

Is this defensive core unusually talented?
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Nizzy on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:43 am

Despres > Eaton
Bennett > Kennedy
Vitale > Glass
Eaton > Engelland

I would like to see those changes for the playoffs.
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Re: A Closer Look at the Players Shero Acquired

Postby Godric on Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:45 am

Nizzy wrote:Despres > Eaton
Bennett > Kennedy
Vitale > Glass
Eaton > Engelland

I would like to see those changes for the playoffs.


I actually agree with this.
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