MVP

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Re: MVP

Postby shmenguin on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:38 pm

So really, Sid is never eligible to win hockey's highest honor (according to its definition), despite him being head and shoulders the best player in the league. As long as he plays with malkin, he'll never be more valuable to his team than a bunch of other guys are to theirs.

It's just a lame way to define an award. All for the sake of what - "MVP" being a fun term for people to say?
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Re: MVP

Postby Gaucho on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:41 pm

shmenguin wrote:So really, Sid is never eligible to win hockey's highest honor (according to its definition), despite him being head and shoulders the best player in the league. As long as he plays with malkin, he'll never be more valuable to his team than a bunch of other guys are to theirs.

It's just a lame way to define an award. All for the sake of what - "MVP" being a fun term for people to say?


It means you better be a very good player on a lousy team if you want to win it.
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Re: MVP

Postby tfrizz on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:45 pm

shmenguin wrote:So really, Sid is never eligible to win hockey's highest honor (according to its definition), despite him being head and shoulders the best player in the league. As long as he plays with malkin, he'll never be more valuable to his team than a bunch of other guys are to theirs.

It's just a lame way to define an award. All for the sake of what - "MVP" being a fun term for people to say?


The problem, really, is holding the Hart in such high regards. The Hart, by definition, is supposed to be award to the "player judged to be the most valuable to his team" as vote by members of the Professional Hockey Writers' Association.

The Lindsay (formerly Pearson), on the other hand, is awarded to the most outstanding player as voted by fellow members of the NHLPA.


Realistically, the Lindsay should be the crown jewel of individual awards. What higher honour is there than being voted the league's most outstanding player by your fellow players? The problem is that since the Hart is a media award, it gets much more hyped by said media than the Lindsay.
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Re: MVP

Postby mikey287 on Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:51 pm

Definitely not Anderson for whoever said that. All of Ottawa's goalies have massive numbers. You could say Paul MacLean for the coach's Hart (Jack Adams) but not an individual on that club...
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Re: MVP

Postby Nizzy on Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:24 am

Ovechkin's going to get it. Fat boy only plays half a season, Crosby dominates for 2/3rds.
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Re: MVP

Postby k0la on Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:54 am

Don't think that you should put too much weight on the "most valuable to their team" phrase, too many ways to angle it. For example, you could say most valuable player for the Pens 03/04 would be whoever contributed the most to getting Crosby/Malkin. That one is a bit far fetched, but it's a bit like that when trying to tell the value of Anderson for Ottawa, or how many points Crosby could have had. That's why to have a chance to win it you also have to be among the best players that year, and have sucsess with your team.
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Re: MVP

Postby Steve Dave on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:36 am

Nizzy wrote:Ovechkin's going to get it. Fat boy only plays half a season, Crosby dominates for 2/3rds.


3/4ths (36/48 games)
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Re: MVP

Postby nexguy66 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:41 am

thepittman wrote:
shmenguin wrote:"the player who means the most to his team" is a silly way to judge awards.

How else would you define "Most Valuable Player"?


MVP should mean "Most valuable player to the league" in that, if you put him on any team, he would improve it the most.
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Re: MVP

Postby Gaucho on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:47 am

nexguy66 wrote:
thepittman wrote:
shmenguin wrote:"the player who means the most to his team" is a silly way to judge awards.

How else would you define "Most Valuable Player"?


MVP should mean "Most valuable player to the league" in that, if you put him on any team, he would improve it the most.


This seems like a much better definition.
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Re: MVP

Postby Pitt87 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:20 am

shmenguin wrote:So really, Sid is never eligible to win hockey's highest honor (according to its definition), despite him being head and shoulders the best player in the league. As long as he plays with malkin, he'll never be more valuable to his team than a bunch of other guys are to theirs.

It's just a lame way to define an award. All for the sake of what - "MVP" being a fun term for people to say?


This is an easy thing to suggest, but it doesn't bear out in reality.

Petr Forsberg, Joe Sakic, and even Sid have Hart trophies from in years that they had a former or Future MVP playing with them. There is an even longer list of players that won the Ross and Hart in the same year and have another guy that was in the top 5-10 in scoring on their team that otherwise would be been middle of the pack.

There's probably an even distribution of both types of winners; the best player on a top team, or a superior performer on a team that is carried forward because of his performance. For the first time, I'd argue that Sid is in both categories, since Chris Kunitz is still in the top 5 in both points and goals.
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Re: MVP

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:40 am

Pitt87 wrote:
shmenguin wrote:So really, Sid is never eligible to win hockey's highest honor (according to its definition), despite him being head and shoulders the best player in the league. As long as he plays with malkin, he'll never be more valuable to his team than a bunch of other guys are to theirs.

It's just a lame way to define an award. All for the sake of what - "MVP" being a fun term for people to say?


This is an easy thing to suggest, but it doesn't bear out in reality.

Petr Forsberg, Joe Sakic, and even Sid have Hart trophies from in years that they had a former or Future MVP playing with them. There is an even longer list of players that won the Ross and Hart in the same year and have another guy that was in the top 5-10 in scoring on their team that otherwise would be been middle of the pack.

There's probably an even distribution of both types of winners; the best player on a top team, or a superior performer on a team that is carried forward because of his performance. For the first time, I'd argue that Sid is in both categories, since Chris Kunitz is still in the top 5 in both points and goals.


we're winning without him. so according to the definition of this award, sid is not an MVP.
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Re: MVP

Postby sil on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:47 am

I guess by the real definition, it should be Kovy's.
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Re: MVP

Postby CERV96 on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:55 am

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Re: MVP

Postby shmenguin on Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:58 am

sil wrote:I guess by the real definition, it should be Kovy's.


either kovy or mark eaton.

anyone but sid, though
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Re: MVP

Postby Staggy on Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:38 pm

Pierre LeBrun article where he chooses freaking Jonathan Toews for the Hart: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/23525/never-too-early-for-lebruns-year-end-awards

I’m really torn on what to do about Crosby. He easily was the best player on the planet this season. He brought his game to a level no other player could match. And as late as a few days ago, I still thought I’d give him my first-place vote despite his late-season injury. But the fact he hasn’t played a game in April is beginning to weigh more in my thoughts. The Hart also isn’t for the most outstanding player or the most outstanding season, but rather the MVP. Take that player away from the team and argue what impact it would have.

Well, for Pittsburgh, whether it’s been without Evgeni Malkin or Crosby, the Eastern Conference powerhouse has just kept winning games...


Having said that, how can you not reward Captain Serious in Chicago? The Blackhawks have been the most consistent powerhouse in the NHL this season, a wire-to-wire dominance fueled by the consistent work ethic and performance of their leader.


Toews? If your going to go by the actual definition of "player most valuable to his team" instead of the best player then how can it not be Tavares? The guy is a superstar on a crap team and is dragging them into the playoffs. Toews is the second leading point scorer on the team with probably the deepest roster in the league. I think Crosby should get it but I could somewhat understand someone voting for Tavares. Voting for Toews, however, makes no sense at all.
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Re: MVP

Postby mikey287 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:32 pm

Toews isn't an awful choice. I understand and agree with your pro-JT sentiment, but Toews isn't nearly as bad of a choice as you make him out to be, IMO...
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Re: MVP

Postby Beveridge on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:37 pm

If not Sid, I think JT would be a worthy choice.
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Re: MVP

Postby Gaucho on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:49 pm

Both their initials are JT. Just saying.
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Re: MVP

Postby mikey287 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 7:50 pm

Gaucho wrote:Both their initials are JT. Just saying.


:lol:
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Re: MVP

Postby Beveridge on Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:13 pm

Gaucho wrote:Both their initials are JT. Just saying.



Touche, good sir.

I meant JT on Long Island. :D
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Re: MVP

Postby nexguy66 on Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:22 pm

Crosby will win it with Ovechkin a distant second. Folks bring up other players but all the polls tend to say the same thing.
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Re: MVP

Postby Steve Dave on Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:00 pm

Ovie 2 goals/assist tonight

45 games 30 goals 21 assists 51 points
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