Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 07, 2013 8:51 am

Troy Loney wrote:
Rocco wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
jprolley wrote:poser did poser things in cleveland tonight

Hanrahan blew another save as well. Gave up a run on 0.2 innings. He did through a wild pitch through one of the advertisements though.


Hanrahan is also hurt again. I've noticed no one is saying the Pirates should have waited to trade him in-season.


It's really easy to seem right all the time with the use of hindsight.


:pop: In hindsight, it was correct of me to be completely indifferent with Hanrahan being moved.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Tue May 07, 2013 9:00 am

In hindsight, the athletics must be real happy to have both Lowrie and Reddick through all of those terrible RP trades the Red Sox have recently made....but Red Sox can't be too upset about it all.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby ulf on Tue May 07, 2013 9:02 am

Well to be fair GMs get judged on their trades. There's no hindsight excuse. Props to NH for making a couple good choices this winter.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 07, 2013 9:07 am

To be fair, Hanrahan would probably be fine in Pittsburgh. Not really much pressure there.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Tue May 07, 2013 9:12 am

I don't think it's NH's genius that has allowed Melancon to all of a sudden thrive in an eigth inning role in Pittsburgh while Hanrahan sucks in Boston. Hanrahan was coming off consecutive all star seasons, melancon was definitely a question mark....from an outsider perspective they traded a sure thing for a question mark to save a couple million dollars. The other parts of that deal are complete garbage, it's only a good looking trade cause Hanrahan wilted in Boston.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby ulf on Tue May 07, 2013 9:21 am

His "genius" obviously didn't allow him to thrive, but I think he (or his scouts if you're hellbent on giving him zero credit) deserve some credit for seeing it coming no?
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Tue May 07, 2013 9:24 am

ulf wrote:His "genius" obviously didn't allow him to thrive, but I think he (or his scouts if you're hellbent on giving him zero credit) deserve some credit for seeing it coming no?



A hanrahan fail or a melancon revival? I'll give him credit for taking melancon off Boston's hands and join the Athletics in the Boston asset giveaway. I think my criticism is targeted more towards ownership for obvioulsy putting an impetus on dumping hanrahan.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Troy Loney on Tue May 07, 2013 9:25 am

It is nice that Melancon is under control through 2016.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby columbia on Tue May 07, 2013 9:26 am

You can't really praise a GM, for a salary dump that goes awry for the other team.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby ulf on Tue May 07, 2013 9:42 am

I said it when we traded him.. Hanrahans walk numbers and other stats showed he was due to regress. He was very lucky last year to get as many saves as he did with only blowing a few. I don't see how it is some surefire thing that he would have succeeded here this year either. We got another reliever who is outperforming him for much cheaper (who as TL pointed out we have for 3 more years). Sands is a turd but Pimentel has some upside.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue May 07, 2013 10:33 am

I've said it then and now, anyone that has remote closer stuff will work in Pittsburgh. There is no pressure on you there. Whether you save or blow the save, the team is either going to fulfill everyone's expectations of the Pirates doing nothing or the Pirates are going to break .500 and still be irrelevant. The Pirates have had competent closers for the past decade+ and done nothing. Is it Pirates' genius in dumping guys in their mid to late 20s just before they collapse or the addition of actual pressure that causes every one of these guys that work in Pittsburgh but fail other places?
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Rocco on Tue May 07, 2013 11:39 am

Troy Loney wrote:
Rocco wrote:
pittsports87 wrote:
jprolley wrote:poser did poser things in cleveland tonight

Hanrahan blew another save as well. Gave up a run on 0.2 innings. He did through a wild pitch through one of the advertisements though.


Hanrahan is also hurt again. I've noticed no one is saying the Pirates should have waited to trade him in-season.


It's really easy to seem right all the time with the use of hindsight.


Sure, though many of us thought that waiting to trade him was equally risky since he faded last year and there was no way to know if he'd be the 2011 version.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Rocco on Tue May 07, 2013 11:40 am

Idoit40fans wrote:I've said it then and now, anyone that has remote closer stuff will work in Pittsburgh. There is no pressure on you there. Whether you save or blow the save, the team is either going to fulfill everyone's expectations of the Pirates doing nothing or the Pirates are going to break .500 and still be irrelevant. The Pirates have had competent closers for the past decade+ and done nothing. Is it Pirates' genius in dumping guys in their mid to late 20s just before they collapse or the addition of actual pressure that causes every one of these guys that work in Pittsburgh but fail other places?


It's because it isn't that hard to find a decent closer and relievers tend to have short shelf lives.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby pfim on Tue May 07, 2013 11:49 am

I felt Melancon would bounce back but still thought they could have gotten something else out of the trade. Pimentel has started ok, but lots of walks, he looks more like a reliever to me if he pans out.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby MWB on Tue May 07, 2013 4:02 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I've said it then and now, anyone that has remote closer stuff will work in Pittsburgh. There is no pressure on you there. Whether you save or blow the save, the team is either going to fulfill everyone's expectations of the Pirates doing nothing or the Pirates are going to break .500 and still be irrelevant.


This. Some guys can't perform in certain cities, and that gets magnified if you're a closer.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Rocco on Tue May 07, 2013 4:41 pm

I'm trying to figure out who all these closers are that the Pirates have had that have failed miserably elsewhere.

2002/03- Mike Williams (fell apart in 2003 with Pittsburgh, out of baseball after that year, the poster child for why you shouldn't wait too long to trade a closer)
2004/05- Jose Mesa (successful closer before Pirates, was good in 2004, struggled in 2005 but refused a trade, pitched decently in Colorado at age 40 before a terrible 2007 season)
2006- Mike Gonzalez (traded to Atlanta, suffered an elbow injury, had a 2.42 ERA in 2009 and has since kicked around as a LOOGY)
2007/09- Matt Capps (was horrible in 2009, ended up redeeming himself in Washington after being non-tendered by the Pirates before getting traded to Minnesota)
2010- Octavio Dotel (traded to LA where he pitched well, then pitched well for 3 more seasons but may be done this year)
2011/12- Joel Hanrahan

So far the set of closers who were great in Pittsburgh but terrible everywhere else is at 1 with Hanrahan. Gonzalez ended up geting hurt; a few others continued to pitch well elsewhere and 1 wasn't wanted by anyone else. The reason why the Pirates have generally had good closers is because it isn't that hard for a reliever to catch lightning in a bottle for a year, and even the worst teams will have at least 30 save opportunities if not more.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby ulf on Tue May 07, 2013 5:30 pm

Yeah i couldn't think of many that succeeded here and left and failed either. Maybe they flamed out before they even left thinking of all the pressure they would face.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed May 08, 2013 7:58 am

Hanrahan, Gonzalez, Mesa(whose career was going to be over until he came to Pittsburgh) off the top of my head. I guess Dotel is bouncing around the league still? I think Capps had an inflated ERA before leaving but was an effective closer, not sure what he is doing now. Mike Williams was never good, and he was the Pirates closer for basically half a decade before his career abruptly ended. That takes us back through a good portion of this streak of losing seasons.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby Rocco on Wed May 08, 2013 8:52 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Hanrahan, Gonzalez, Mesa(whose career was going to be over until he came to Pittsburgh) off the top of my head. I guess Dotel is bouncing around the league still? I think Capps had an inflated ERA before leaving but was an effective closer, not sure what he is doing now. Mike Williams was never good, and he was the Pirates closer for basically half a decade before his career abruptly ended. That takes us back through a good portion of this streak of losing seasons.


Man, it's a shame no one has gone back and chronicled a list of Pirates closers over the last 10 years in this thread and what they did when they left Pittsburgh.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Wed May 08, 2013 10:39 am

jason grilli had a valiant save in that 4-1 game last night
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby MWB on Wed May 08, 2013 3:00 pm

Ten percent of closers are dominant pitchers who can pitch anywhere, anytime, and still be great. Twenty percent are dominant on the right team, but can't handle being in a different team or in a higher pressure situation. Seventy percent are good pitchers who have the opportunity to close and are inconsistent over their career. That's my basic feeling anyway.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby ulf on Wed May 08, 2013 3:06 pm

67 percent of stats are made up on LGP.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby JoseCuervo on Wed May 08, 2013 5:45 pm

A good reliever can be a good closer for a couple years. Closers aren't that hard to find really. I mean, prior to this season the cardinals closer has been a blind catcher.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby MWB on Wed May 08, 2013 6:56 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:A good reliever can be a good closer for a couple years. Closers aren't that hard to find really. I mean, prior to this season the cardinals closer has been a blind catcher.


Not hard to find one who can be good short term. Very hard to find one who can be good for a long time.
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Re: Non-Pirates Baseball Thread

Postby columbia on Wed May 08, 2013 6:57 pm

^^^

Thinly veiled #42 humblebrag.
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