LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 16, 2013 1:54 pm

thepittman wrote:Except that I didn't use "most" or "all". From my experience though, poor people that are not heavily religious are on the other side of the spectrum.

You made a straightforward declaratory statement: "Poor people do x." You don't need the "all" or "most." Frankly, I was being generous in offering that you "only" meant "most" rather than all. Perhaps you didn't intend it or meant to say something else, but yours was a blanket statement encompassing the entire class.
Last edited by slappybrown on Thu May 16, 2013 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 1:54 pm

thepittman wrote:
rasbatch wrote:
thepittman wrote:
rasbatch wrote:I hate the poor too, they're just so damn lazy. I prefer that my hardwork gets confiscated so we can kill other countries poor people.


No one hates poor people, I just don't like people acting as leeches to the system who are not disabled in some form.

yes you do, you think all poor people are lazy. But you'll gladly pay those taxes so some corporation doesn't have to. You'll complain
about someone stealing pennies when someone else is robbing you blind. How much of your tax dollars do you think goes to welfare,
food stamps all that combined? All of that wouldn't fund the pentagon for 2 minutes. :D :D

I'm not going to talk with someone who is going to put words in my mouth and generalize everyone that doesn't agree with them as militarist neo-cons

Not to mention the whole argument that we should turn a blind eye to entitlement reform because the military is out of control.

I have an idea...
Spoiler:
Why not address both


Nope, that would spoil rasbatch's drive-bys...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu May 16, 2013 1:55 pm

thepittman wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:This is a good article that explains how large corporations are able to dodge paying corporate taxes.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/corporate_tax_dodgers

Right now the high tax rates are only hurting small and middle size businesses. Raising the tax rates isn't an effective way to raise revenue as the large corporations will continue to dodge paying taxes unless the tax loopholes in the article are closed.

I believe that the tax loopholes need to be closed but once they are, the corporate tax rate also needs to be reduced similar to the rates used by European countries.


Slippery slope, tax too much and there is no incentive to maintain a HQ in the US.

That is why I also believe in reducing corporate tax rates but only once the current loopholes are eliminated or at least reduced.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:00 pm

slappybrown wrote:
thepittman wrote:Except that I didn't use "most" or "all". From my experience though, poor people that are not heavily religious are on the other side of the spectrum.

You made a straightforward declaratory statement: "Poor people do x." You don't need the "all" or "most." Frankly, I was being generous in offering that you "only" meant "most" rather than all. Perhaps you didn't intend it or meant to say something else, but yours was a blanket statement encompassing the entire class.

I guess I should have used better terminology but you can continue pretending you didn't know what I meant. This isn't a court, it is a two way discussion. I'm not a fool and believe that everyone is a bum that is poor, because I'm not a bum and I'm poor. My parents weren't bums, they just lacked the courage and confidence to pursue greater things. They did however work jobs that provided healthcare for their family and my dad continues to work 80 hours a week at the age of 64. They never made excuses for themselves and never relied on government assistance.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 2:00 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:
thepittman wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:This is a good article that explains how large corporations are able to dodge paying corporate taxes.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/corporate_tax_dodgers

Right now the high tax rates are only hurting small and middle size businesses. Raising the tax rates isn't an effective way to raise revenue as the large corporations will continue to dodge paying taxes unless the tax loopholes in the article are closed.

I believe that the tax loopholes need to be closed but once they are, the corporate tax rate also needs to be reduced similar to the rates used by European countries.


Slippery slope, tax too much and there is no incentive to maintain a HQ in the US.

That is why I also believe in reducing corporate tax rates but only once the current loopholes are eliminated or at least reduced.

Certainly their are many corporate abuses of the tax system. That's one of a number of reasons that it's in dire need of reform.

My pet peeve is the size of americas underground economy. It's enormous, and pays little to no tax at all. Yet the IRS is focused on preventing the Tea-Party groups from obtaining a favorable tax status. How about collecting revenues off of these tax cheats?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby rasbatch on Thu May 16, 2013 2:02 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
thepittman wrote:
rasbatch wrote:
thepittman wrote:
rasbatch wrote:I hate the poor too, they're just so damn lazy. I prefer that my hardwork gets confiscated so we can kill other countries poor people.


No one hates poor people, I just don't like people acting as leeches to the system who are not disabled in some form.

yes you do, you think all poor people are lazy. But you'll gladly pay those taxes so some corporation doesn't have to. You'll complain
about someone stealing pennies when someone else is robbing you blind. How much of your tax dollars do you think goes to welfare,
food stamps all that combined? All of that wouldn't fund the pentagon for 2 minutes. :D :D

I'm not going to talk with someone who is going to put words in my mouth and generalize everyone that doesn't agree with them as militarist neo-cons

Not to mention the whole argument that we should turn a blind eye to entitlement reform because the military is out of control.

I have an idea...
Spoiler:
Why not address both


Nope, that would spoil rasbatch's drive-bys...

Hey I'm down, count me down. Let's address both but let's do equally. I understand that we need the military
I'm not that naive. Once again, how much of your tax dollars go to fund welfare programs. If you paid $2000 last
year just as a nominal figure do you think $20 of that goes to welfare? $100? I honestly don't know but I know
it's a drop in the bucket compared to the defense budget. I'm just totally f'n sick of this characterisation of the poor
as responsible for the all the ills in this country.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 pm

thepittman wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
thepittman wrote:Except that I didn't use "most" or "all". From my experience though, poor people that are not heavily religious are on the other side of the spectrum.

You made a straightforward declaratory statement: "Poor people do x." You don't need the "all" or "most." Frankly, I was being generous in offering that you "only" meant "most" rather than all. Perhaps you didn't intend it or meant to say something else, but yours was a blanket statement encompassing the entire class.

I guess I should have used better terminology but you can continue pretending you didn't know what I meant. This isn't a court, it is a two way discussion. I'm not a fool and believe that everyone is a bum that is poor, because I'm not a bum and I'm poor. My parents weren't bums, they just lacked the courage and confidence to pursue greater things. They did however work jobs that provided healthcare for their family and my dad continues to work 80 hours a week at the age of 64. They never made excuses for themselves and never relied on government assistance.

I have no idea what you believe. Based in your subsequent posts, its hardly shocking to think you would believe most poor people are lazy, and that your opening post on the matter meant what it said. I'm not "pretending" anything; if you want to convey your ideas so that they aren't misunderstood (and in this case, multiple people apparently concluded your view on most poor people was that they are lazy), write more precisely. Don't get uppity with me because you can't effectively express yourself through the written word.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu May 16, 2013 2:03 pm

EPP, I think I have an idea what you mean by underground economy but could you elaborate further?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:05 pm

When did this turn from complaining about able workers leeching from the system, to a discussion on people paying taxes? I pay my taxes and understand there are a lot of conveniences that we take for granted on a daily basis that it pays for. That is why I can't classify myself a straight Libertarian, because I believe there is a place for wider government interaction. I just hate people and corporations exploiting the system that honest people never even bother to attempt.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

slappybrown wrote:
thepittman wrote:
slappybrown wrote:
thepittman wrote:Except that I didn't use "most" or "all". From my experience though, poor people that are not heavily religious are on the other side of the spectrum.

You made a straightforward declaratory statement: "Poor people do x." You don't need the "all" or "most." Frankly, I was being generous in offering that you "only" meant "most" rather than all. Perhaps you didn't intend it or meant to say something else, but yours was a blanket statement encompassing the entire class.

I guess I should have used better terminology but you can continue pretending you didn't know what I meant. This isn't a court, it is a two way discussion. I'm not a fool and believe that everyone is a bum that is poor, because I'm not a bum and I'm poor. My parents weren't bums, they just lacked the courage and confidence to pursue greater things. They did however work jobs that provided healthcare for their family and my dad continues to work 80 hours a week at the age of 64. They never made excuses for themselves and never relied on government assistance.

I have no idea what you believe. Based in your subsequent posts, its hardly shocking to think you would believe most poor people are lazy, and that your opening post on the matter meant what it said. I'm not "pretending" anything; if you want to convey your ideas so that they aren't misunderstood (and in this case, multiple people apparently concluded your view on most poor people was that they are lazy), write more precisely. Don't get uppity with me because you can't effectively express yourself through the written word.


End with an uppity statement about being uppity :lol:
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 2:07 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:EPP, I think I have an idea what you mean by underground economy but could you elaborate further?

Your landscaper, the general contractor who doesn't report his cash deals. The landlord who doesn't report the rent. The lovcal business who gives you one price for cash purchases and another price if you write him a check or pay with a credit card. (don't tell me you don't know why he has two different prices... hint: It's not the credit card processing fees.)

We could go on and on and on
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:08 pm

I applaud you slappy

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 16, 2013 2:11 pm

thepittman wrote:I applaud you slappy

Image

Image
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu May 16, 2013 2:13 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:EPP, I think I have an idea what you mean by underground economy but could you elaborate further?

Your landscaper, the general contractor who doesn't report his cash deals. The landlord who doesn't report the rent. The lovcal business who gives you one price for cash purchases and another price if you write him a check or pay with a credit card. (don't tell me you don't know why he has two different prices... hint: It's not the credit card processing fees.)

We could go on and on and on


I agree to the extent that the costs of going after these people individually are less than the amount that would actually be recovered.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 2:16 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:EPP, I think I have an idea what you mean by underground economy but could you elaborate further?

Your landscaper, the general contractor who doesn't report his cash deals. The landlord who doesn't report the rent. The lovcal business who gives you one price for cash purchases and another price if you write him a check or pay with a credit card. (don't tell me you don't know why he has two different prices... hint: It's not the credit card processing fees.)

We could go on and on and on


I agree to the extent that the costs of going after these people individually are less than the amount that would actually be recovered.


Not neccessarily. When you consider the effect that making an example out of someone has, you could lose money on a single proscution but make it up by others observing and coming into compliance so as not to suffer the same fate.

The damages and penalties would have to be significant and the proceedings made very public.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby slappybrown on Thu May 16, 2013 2:20 pm

The problem is the IRS is already underwater; let alone chasing Bob's Landscapers (some guy named Bob and his buddy Joe) for the 25K/summer in unreported income. Which has as its root cause the tax code itself, but that's another story.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu May 16, 2013 2:22 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Whether you're willing to admit it or not, you're not getting the majority of that tax revenue from Warren Buffett and Bill Gates, you're getting it from the middle class. Hard working people who are the backbone of our society.

That's factually inaccurate. The latest year that statistics are available for is 2010, and in that year the wealthiest 10% of taxpayers contributed 70% of tax revenues collected by the IRS. (Representing an increase of about 15% in ~30 years.) Which actually indicates that they're getting kind of a sweet deal, since that same subset of uber-rich controls somewhere between 80% and 90% of the wealth in the country.

thepittman wrote:
Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:This is a good article that explains how large corporations are able to dodge paying corporate taxes.

http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/corporate_tax_dodgers

Right now the high tax rates are only hurting small and middle size businesses. Raising the tax rates isn't an effective way to raise revenue as the large corporations will continue to dodge paying taxes unless the tax loopholes in the article are closed.

I believe that the tax loopholes need to be closed but once they are, the corporate tax rate also needs to be reduced similar to the rates used by European countries.


Slippery slope, tax too much and there is no incentive to maintain a HQ in the US.

The statutory corporate tax rate in the U.S. is one of (if not the) highest in the industrialized world. The effective rate actually paid by the largest of corporations (which are really the only ones that might have an option of maintaining an HQ in the country) is one of (if not the) lowest in the industrialized world.

thepittman wrote:I'm not going to talk with someone who is going to put words in my mouth and generalize everyone that doesn't agree with them as militarist neo-cons

I think the point is that the dollars spent on public welfare programs is dwarfed by the money spent on corporate welfare and crony capitalism.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:24 pm

The statutory corporate tax rate in the U.S. is one of (if not the) highest in the industrialized world. The effective rate actually paid by the largest of corporations (which are really the only ones that might have an option of maintaining an HQ in the country) is one of (if not the) lowest in the industrialized world.


Understood, that was my point

I think the point is that the dollars spent on public welfare programs is dwarfed by the money spent on corporate welfare and crony capitalism.


As well as a Military contract system built around corrupt deals and waste.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:27 pm

I was in Iraq seeing contractors collecting money for incomplete projects, never started projects, and phantom projects. I'm glad a few of them got caught and prosecuted. I only could see one glimpse of that though, I can't imagine how big the problem actually is.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:29 pm

There is way too much money being thrown around with no oversight whatsoever
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby tifosi77 on Thu May 16, 2013 2:44 pm

Wasn't it something like $6 billion that the military just..... lost..... in Iraq?

It wasn't U.S. taxpayer money (it was from a fund set up by the Fed using Iraqi assets frozen during the many years of sanctions before the 2003 invasion), but that's still a pretty hefty chunk of change to simply lose track of.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby thepittman on Thu May 16, 2013 2:48 pm

Audit: U.S.-Led Occupation Squandered Aid
By JIM KRANE, Associated Press Writer 2 hours, 15 minutes ago


DUBAI, United Arab Emirates - Iraqi money gambled away in the Philippines. Thousands spent on a swimming pool that was never used. An elevator repaired so poorly that it crashed, killing people.

A U.S. government audit found American-led occupation authorities squandered tens of millions of dollars that were supposed to be used to rebuild

Iraq through undocumented spending and outright fraud.



In some cases, auditors recommend criminal charges be filed against the perpetrators. In others, it asks the U.S. ambassador to Iraq to recoup the money.

Dryly written audit reports describe the Coalition Provisional Authority's offices in the south-central city of Hillah being awash in bricks of $100 bills taken from a central vault without documentation.

It describes one agent who kept almost $700,000 in cash in an unlocked footlocker and mentions a U.S. soldier who gambled away as much as $60,000 in reconstruction funds in the Philippines.

"Tens of millions of dollars in cash had gone in and out of the South-Central Region vault without any tracking of who deposited or withdrew the money, and why it was taken out," says a report by the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, which is in the midst of a series of audits for the

Pentagon and State Department.



Much of the first audit reports deal with contracting in south-central Iraq, one of the country's least-hostile regions. Audits have yet to be released for the occupation authority's spending in the rest of Iraq.

The audits offer a window into the chaotic U.S.-led occupation of Iraq of 2003-04, when inexperienced American officials — including workers from

President Bush's election campaign — organized a cash-intensive "hearts and minds" mission to rebuild Iraq's devastated economy.



But the corruption and incompetence documented in the reports reveal that much of the effort, however well-intentioned, was wasted.

The failure of the rebuilding effort has been borne out most vividly by the rise of a virulent anti-American insurgency that has claimed most of the 2,237 U.S. military lives lost since the war began.

In some cases, auditors could find no trace of cash, much of which came from Iraqi oil revenues overseen by the occupation authority.

"Those deficiencies were so significant that we were precluded from accomplishing our stated objectives," the auditors said of U.S. officials in Hillah being unable to account for $97 million of the $120 million in Iraqi oil revenues earmarked for rebuilding projects.

An October 2005 audit found documentation for the spending of just $8 million of that money.

Negligence proved deadly in at least one case. Three Iraqis plummeted to their deaths in an elevator in the Hillah General Hospital that was certified to have been replaced by a contractor who received $662,800.

Also in Hillah, occupation officials spent $108,140 to replace pumps and fix the city's Olympic swimming pool. But the contractor merely polished the old plumbing to make it look new and collected his money.

When the pool was filled, the water came out a murky brown and the pool's reopening had to be canceled. The reports did not identify the contractors involved.

Auditors have asked the U.S. ambassador to recover a total of $571,823 that the reports describe as overpaid funds.

In some cases, cash simply disappeared.

Two occupation authority field agents responsible for paying contractors left Iraq without accounting for more than $700,000 each. When auditors confronted their manager and asked where the money was, the manger tried to clear one of the agents through false paperwork.

"This appears to be an attempt to remove outstanding balances by simply washing accounts," the auditor said. The two agents were not identified and there was no word on whether the pair were referred for prosecution.

One report describes mismanagement of more than 2,000 small contracts in south-central Iraq worth $88 million. Occupation staffers or those they supervised handed out millions to companies that never submitted required competitive bids or that were paid for unfinished work.

Other examples cited in the reports:

_Only a quarter of $23 million entrusted to civilian and military project and contracting officers to pay contractors ever found its way to those contractors.

_One contractor was paid $14,000 on four separate occasions for the same job.

_Of $7.3 million spent on a police academy near Hillah, auditors could account for just $4 million. They said $1.3 million was wasted on overpriced or duplicate construction or equipment not delivered. More than $2 million was missing.

_U.S. personnel "needlessly disbursed more than $1.8 million" of the estimated $2.3 million spent for renovating the library in the Shiite holy city of Karbala.

_The library contractor delivered only 18 of 68 personal computers called for and did not install Internet wiring or software. The computers worked only as stand-alones.

_The U.S.-led security transition command spent $945,000 for seven armored Mercedes-Benzes that were too lightly armored for Iraq. Auditors were able to account for only six of the cars.

_At one point, several paying agents kept cash inside the same filing cabinet in the Hillah vault. One agent took $100,000 from another's stack of cash to clear his own balance. "This was only discovered because the other paying agent had to make a disbursement that day and realized that he was short cash," the report says.

Copyright © 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained in the AP News report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Rylan on Thu May 16, 2013 2:51 pm

Gaucho wrote:Welp, I have yet to get a $100,000 medical bill.


It is no good I tell ya.

Stay out of debt while young they tell ya, hopefully you don't get hurt in America then...
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby BigMcK on Thu May 16, 2013 2:59 pm

Rylan wrote:
Gaucho wrote:Welp, I have yet to get a $100,000 medical bill.


It is no good I tell ya.

Stay out of debt while young they tell ya, hopefully you don't get hurt in America then...


In hindsight, if you knew that your actions that lead to an injury would result in $100.000 of medical bills, would you still have performed those actions?
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Re: LGP Political Discussion Thread - Latest news at top

Postby Rylan on Thu May 16, 2013 3:08 pm

No.
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