Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby tifosi77 on Thu May 16, 2013 6:20 pm

Kaizer wrote:student: "dick trickle died."

dean: "you're expelled."

You win the El Gippy Award for Internet Excellence today. Funny, topical, timely, and you've neatly brought together multiple threads. :fist:
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Spangler on Thu May 16, 2013 7:19 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Wow. This leaves a lot of question marks.

So asking a girl out and getting rejected = sexual harassment now?


Not only do you get your heart broken, but your life is potentially ruined.

This is kinda off-topic, but I have a friend who divorced his wife years ago while they had kids. Even though he was fully capable of taking care of his kids and a better parent, the courts awarded custody to his wife. Turn's out, his wife is legitimately crazy, and his kids have hated her for many years. The court awarded custody to her mainly because she was a woman.

Going back to this sexual harassment issue, if some girl is a genuine scumbag, she's going to get the benefit of the doubt even though there is no basis to her claim?
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby count2infinity on Thu May 16, 2013 7:53 pm

The biggest issue is the absolute destruction that can happen to a person's career, both educational and beyond that, by having the words "sexual harassment" on any sort of record.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu May 16, 2013 9:05 pm

The phrase "slippery slope" isn't strong enough. This is more of a cliff made out of Crisco.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby shafnutz05 on Thu May 16, 2013 9:33 pm

Happy the DOJ has found something else to do besides spy on reporters.

I know in studying for my HR exam, there are decades of precedent establishing the "reasonable person" standard to these situations. To actually base the definition on a woman's reaction and nothing else reverses established case law.

I'd love to know the Ivory Tower types in the Cabinet departments that are endorsing this.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby columbia on Thu May 16, 2013 9:41 pm

Well...it's complicated.
I've seen harassment (although not sexual) in the workplace and eventually a 3rd party had to step in and back the person (who was being effed with in a very unprofessional manner) up.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby ExPatriatePen on Thu May 16, 2013 10:13 pm

Personally I'm glad to this happen.

You have no idea what it's like to be constantly harassed by every woman I come into contact with. They all totally objectify me and I feel like they're undressing me with their eyes.

It's hell I tell you, pure hell. :pop:
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Froggy on Thu May 16, 2013 10:18 pm

columbia wrote:Well...it's complicated.
I've seen harassment (although not sexual) in the workplace and eventually a 3rd party had to step in and back the person (who was being effed with in a very unprofessional manner) up.

isn't this apples to... well, a completely different kind of apples, though? We aren't talking about men seeking out to terrorize or objectify women here. we are talking about a man being guilty of harassment due to the fact that his mere existence makes a female slightly uncomfortable.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Froggy on Thu May 16, 2013 10:20 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Personally I'm glad to this happen.

You have no idea what it's like to be constantly harassed by every woman I come into contact with. They all totally objectify me and I feel like they're undressing me with their eyes.

It's hell I tell you, pure hell. :pop:

i know this is a joke, but that standard doesn't work both ways. if it did, couldn't i say a woman was harassing ME because i found her manner of dress to be distracting? not saying that's right either. just holding the mirror up to what this actually says.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby pensfan1989 on Thu May 16, 2013 10:36 pm

So in theory, if a girl called her friend a "slut" and I overheard it, I could get that girl expelled from college.

Makes sense.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby JoseCuervo on Thu May 16, 2013 10:50 pm

Not sure how I'm gonna do it, but batting for the other team doesn't seem so bad
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby obhave on Fri May 17, 2013 1:07 am

Shyster wrote:This attempted policy change is absolutely appalling, and it patently violates years of precedent on the First Amendment, including precedent straight from the Supreme Court. What makes this even worse is that on many college campuses, persons accused of “harassment” or other similar behaviors are often subject to minimal due process. For example, it’s not uncommon for an accused to be immediately suspended and kicked off campus based only on an accusation; neither is it uncommon for the accused to be denied the right to be represented by legal counsel. Hearings often take place in front of administrators who have strong biases (like the schools “Diversity Coordinator” or some similar job title), and in many cases the burden of proof for the accuser is so low that the accused is essentially guilty until proven innocent.


I have many things to say about this article (good and bad) but I'm going to start with a reply to you Shyster.

1.) From my research and understanding, we may have a different definition of "immediately" suspended. When it comes to most institutions, they are extremely reluctant to suspend or expel students for sexual harassment allegations. They tend to victim blame and side with the person accused. In many cases, it is the victim who ends up leaving the campus for mental health issues, while the accused stays on the campus. Most administrators' "strong biases" are not towards the victims. They tend to try and push things under the rug and make things go away, which usually does not end in suspending students. I go to a very progressive institution, where you would expect the administration to have a strong bias towards victims, which is just not the case. When you say the burden of proof is low for the accuser, that just isn't entirely true.

2) I COMPLETELY agree that the definition of sexual harassment laid out is way too broad. There are multiple issues with this. It should not be a problem with someone getting offended. There are issues when someone gets harmed. I get offended when people make rape jokes, they make me uncomfortable. That doesn't mean that they are harming me, or that someone should get in trouble for it. That is not sexual harassment. The biggest issue with this definition is the limitations it may bring to the discussion of rape, sexual assault, and sex in general. These can be uncomfortable topics. If one is uncomfortable with these topics, they can now say its sexual harassment (based on this definition). This could be detrimental to the movement to educate people on sex, consent, and rape culture.

3) Another important issue is the judicial system with sexual harassment cases in colleges. You need people in those positions who are not bias towards the victims and who will also not victim blame. It is a difficult balance, but all can be done in the way you ask questions. It is important to understand the situation (how drunk someone was, where they were, who was there, etc.), but many victims feel so attacked during the proceedings that they almost can't go on after the first stages. Bias towards women is also a problem, since I do know people who have been wrongly accused. The moral of the story: Schools need to take more time in choosing their people for these positions. Most of the time, no one is qualified and it leads to many issues.

I have lots more to say on this topic, but I can go on for days so I will stop here for now.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri May 17, 2013 6:42 am

So basically, if you may have crossed the line to harassment, take your chances with getting away with murder.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby count2infinity on Fri May 17, 2013 7:23 am

Obhave, I'm curious if you have any sort of statistics to back up your claims of administration siding with the accused rather than the accuser. When I went to the head of the department here to talk to him about my situation I described in JTOR (link in opening post) the minute I brought up the fact that she was threatening sexual harassment charges, the guy started grilling me with question after question that almost seemed aggressive toward me until I got my full story out and he realized there were no grounds for such charges. It was very uncomfortable being looked at as a villain when I did nothing wrong. I think blanket statements like "they tend to blame the victim" or "they tend to push things under the rug" are very dangerous statements, unless of course you've been involved in sexual harassment cases in multiple universities across the nation, which I doubt you have. All I know is PSU's chemistry department takes sexual harassment claims VERY seriously, and since I am not at every college and in every department across the nation, I cannot make claims that chemistry departments "tend to" take sexual harassment claims seriously, nor can I say that colleges in general "tend to" take sexual harassment claims seriously. All I can do is speak from my experience.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Lunchman on Fri May 17, 2013 7:26 am

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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby obhave on Fri May 17, 2013 8:04 am

count2infinity wrote:Obhave, I'm curious if you have any sort of statistics to back up your claims of administration siding with the accused rather than the accuser. When I went to the head of the department here to talk to him about my situation I described in JTOR (link in opening post) the minute I brought up the fact that she was threatening sexual harassment charges, the guy started grilling me with question after question that almost seemed aggressive toward me until I got my full story out and he realized there were no grounds for such charges. It was very uncomfortable being looked at as a villain when I did nothing wrong. I think blanket statements like "they tend to blame the victim" or "they tend to push things under the rug" are very dangerous statements, unless of course you've been involved in sexual harassment cases in multiple universities across the nation, which I doubt you have. All I know is PSU's chemistry department takes sexual harassment claims VERY seriously, and since I am not at every college and in every department across the nation, I cannot make claims that chemistry departments "tend to" take sexual harassment claims seriously, nor can I say that colleges in general "tend to" take sexual harassment claims seriously. All I can do is speak from my experience.


They can be dangerous, I understand, but its not just me pulling that out of no where. Those blanket statements come from years of research on this topic, personal experience, and from personally hearing stories from those at multiple other universities around the country who also have gone through the same process (not just from blogs). This is the statistic that is most important to me about college campuses and sexual assault (since this is what I research most):

90% of sexual assaults go unreported on college campuses. The most often cited reason for that is institutional barriers, which I have already discussed (administrators who victim blame and the attacker who stays on campus while the victim is the one who leaves).

There is not really a consistent statistic for whether the accused/accuser is sided with, and I wouldn't trust it anyway. Reason being, many women don't make it past the first round of questioning due to the attack they feel on them when they did nothing wrong, which could skew that statistic.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby count2infinity on Fri May 17, 2013 8:13 am

How do they come up with 90% of sexual assaults go unreported? When I was falsely accused of sexual harassment, I went looking for statistics of false claims of sexual harassment and sexual assault and everything I read said the same thing over and over and over, "the numbers are difficult to collect for false accusations and unreported incidents." They cite that numbers can vary wildly from study to study and that without proper definitions and proper sample size these numbers cannot be taken to be accurate. I can't remember the article I read or who wrote it, but they said that looking at the reports unreported sexual assaults vary from 45% to 95% and incidents of being falsely accused or no evidence to support claims varied from 5% to 50% of cases. In this particular instance, blanket statements of any regard must be limited to zero. Each incident is unique and must be treated as so.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Froggy on Fri May 17, 2013 8:17 am

I should add that this is not about rape or sexual assault. It is about women being able to report men for sexual harassment for ridiculous reasons. The fact that this issue gets lumped in to a discussion about rape and sexual assault is exactly why it terrifies me.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby obhave on Fri May 17, 2013 8:20 am

Froggy wrote:I should add that this is not about rape or sexual assault. It is about women being able to report men for sexual harassment for ridiculous reasons. The fact that this issue gets lumped in to a discussion about rape and sexual assault is exactly why it terrifies me.


Right, my original post I tried to stay away from that. You just have to realize that on college campus all sexual cases (harassment, assault, and rape) go through the same board. So the same people who victim blame in rape cases will do the same in sexual harassment cases. Or alternatively, the people who will always side with the women will do the same in either case.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby count2infinity on Fri May 17, 2013 8:21 am

Froggy wrote:I should add that this is not about rape or sexual assault. It is about women being able to report men for sexual harassment for ridiculous reasons. The fact that this issue gets lumped in to a discussion about rape and sexual assault is exactly why it terrifies me.


:thumb: apparently you can't talk about one without the other. It's all in the "rape culture" that has developed in our generation... apparently.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri May 17, 2013 8:26 am

Anyone who's ever filed a police complaint (victim) or been investigated on a false charge (accused) can tell you that the process is grueling and uncomfortable.

The investigating authorities (if they're doing their job properly) need to get a clear picture of what actually happened, and they need to ask tough and very uncomfortable questions to get that picture.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby count2infinity on Fri May 17, 2013 8:29 am

ExPatriatePen wrote:Anyone who's ever filed a police complaint (victim) or been investigated on a false charge (accused) can tell you that the process is grueling and uncomfortable.

The investigating authorities (if they're doing their job properly) need to get a clear picture of what actually happened, and they need to ask tough and very uncomfortable questions to get that picture.


this is what I/my group went through. non-stop grilling of events, dates, why I/we did what we did, clarifying false allegations. It was ridiculously long and uncomfortable. It's one of those times where you just want to scream at the top of your lungs, "I DIDN'T **** DO ANYTHING!" but at the same time I understand the need for such an investigation.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri May 17, 2013 8:37 am

count2infinity wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:Anyone who's ever filed a police complaint (victim) or been investigated on a false charge (accused) can tell you that the process is grueling and uncomfortable.

The investigating authorities (if they're doing their job properly) need to get a clear picture of what actually happened, and they need to ask tough and very uncomfortable questions to get that picture.


this is what I/my group went through. non-stop grilling of events, dates, why I/we did what we did, clarifying false allegations. It was ridiculously long and uncomfortable. It's one of those times where you just want to scream at the top of your lungs, "I DIDN'T **** DO ANYTHING!" but at the same time I understand the need for such an investigation.

You're absolutely right, of course. I went through a false allegation a while back (not sexual harassment) and was actually arrested and thrown into a holding cell with a bunch of NY gang members from Hempstead (home of an ex steelers running back). Hired an attorney, went through the arraignment, 15 court visits. $15k dollars, only to have both the criminal and civil complaints dismissed.

Being accused of something you didn't do in front of a panel of Jurors, well let's just say it's a very sobering experience.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby obhave on Fri May 17, 2013 8:38 am

count2infinity wrote:
Froggy wrote:I should add that this is not about rape or sexual assault. It is about women being able to report men for sexual harassment for ridiculous reasons. The fact that this issue gets lumped in to a discussion about rape and sexual assault is exactly why it terrifies me.


:thumb: apparently you can't talk about one without the other. It's all in the "rape culture" that has developed in our generation... apparently.


The broad definition of "harassment" almost makes a joke out of rape culture. It shouldn't be lumped in, in my opinion. I'm also sorry for bringing in sexual assault to the conversation, it just that is what most of the stats I have are for. And when it comes to proceedings on campuses they are all lumped together. My apologies.

I really just can't get over how broad and awful the definition is. I've already mentioned how bad this could be for the discussions of rape, sex, etc. But what about the accused? If you do the slightest thing under this definition, you are branded for life as someone who has "sexually harassed" someone. Maybe all you did was talk about sex in front of another person. OH DEAR GOD.

It is very important to protect women and men from sexual harassment, this broad definition is just not the way to do it.
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Re: Sexual Harassment has been redefined on campuses

Postby Froggy on Fri May 17, 2013 8:39 am

Im just tired of the recent phenomenon of males (well straight white males, anyway) being judged on the actions of the worst of their gender. Guys shouldn't be lumped in with the drink spiking date rapey dudebros any more than all women getting lumped in to the drunk spring breakers who are dtf.
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