Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

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Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby ivand87 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:55 am

http://nhl.si.com/2013/06/08/penguins-s ... -what-now/

Watching Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin trying to stickhandle their way through Boston’s smothering defense only to be rejected again and again offered the perfect allegory to their failings. Right to the end, the Penguins thought talent would win out. The Bruins were a team that thought team would win out.


I’m on the record as saying Dan Bylsma should have addressed his team’s lack of composure in Games 1 and 2 of the Eastern Conference Final, but that failing shouldn’t cost him his job. But after watching last night, I’m not so sure. The Pens were a more competitive team in Games 3 and 4, tighter defensively, better on the draw, and spent more time with the puck. But even when facing elimination, Bylsma crafted no ambitious counterattack, showed little creativity with his lines, and failed to curb the urges of Crosby and Malkin to try to save the season all by themselves.

Dan Bylsma is a good coach, but he lacked the imagination to win even a single game in this series. If someone has to pay the price for this debacle, it’s probably him.


Yep. This is the Penguins' most significant downfall. With the identity that we've created with these superstar players, and this goes back to our failures in the 90's as well, the team has always leaned too much on individual players carrying us and not nearly enough on the whole group of guys playing well as a team. Crosby might have been able to split the defense and score that spectacular goal in Game 5 against the Isles, but when you're facing a team like Boston, you gotta realize that sort of play is highly unlikely and you have to have a much stronger emphasis on playing well as a team on both ends of the ice and leaning a whole lot less on individual players coming up with big plays. This is something that I really doubt Dan Bylsma recognized and worked on.

This is evident with Crosby and Malkin against Boston, but even more so with Letang. For Letang to have jumped up on the play in the offensive zone on the first shift of the game in Game 2, leaving Crosby to play a bouncing puck on the point is just flat out unacceptable. That falls on Bylsma because he doesn't have control of his players. How do you allow Letang to do that in a scoreless game against such a highly disciplined team when you've already lost the first game?

I think Shero will have to be patient with Letang. His contract talks will dictate his future here. You can shop him around and get a #1 dman in return, but I think he's too talented to let go of and he's still a relatively young player who can learn to play the right way. Fleury has two more years on his contract so he will probably get one more year since we have Vokoun locked up anyway for next year as well, thankfully! Although I wouldn't put it past Shero to ship out both of those guys and somehow get us a fantastic return.

But obviously Bylsma does not deserve one more year. He has to go and we need to find a guy who can deal with our superstar players and get them to play a team game first when the going gets tough. Bylsma was outcoached last year by Laviolette and embarrassed this year by Claude Julien. I hope Shero doesn't wait around to do the inevitable, but more importantly, it's time to address this team's identity so we can have skill players realize that their hero mentality and individual play will not work come playoff time.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:36 am

There is a point in this that I think is really important. We have a lot of guys that look like superstars because Bylsma lets them play whatever game they want to. If we had a disciplined coach in here, would these players look the same? Think about the Dupuis and Neals of the world. They were nothing before coming here but in our wide open, no discipline system, they look fantastic...until a team that counters a lack of discipline faces them. Ottawa didn't but the Isles, Flyers, Bruins, etc... all did.

Dan's system wins regular season games, but not playoffs when smart opposing coaches trap the unbridled creativity and play basic hockey.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Defence21 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:57 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:There is a point in this that I think is really important. We have a lot of guys that look like superstars because Bylsma lets them play whatever game they want to. If we had a disciplined coach in here, would these players look the same? Think about the Dupuis and Neals of the world. They were nothing before coming here but in our wide open, no discipline system, they look fantastic...until a team that counters a lack of discipline faces them. Ottawa didn't but the Isles, Flyers, Bruins, etc... all did.

Dan's system wins regular season games, but not playoffs when smart opposing coaches trap the unbridled creativity and play basic hockey.

I disagree that Bylsma has led these two players to be superstars by way of lack of discipline. One, Dupuis being a superstar is NOT a bad thing. This is a guy who was a defensive specialist with no hands who has grown into a legit top-six forward...while not forgetting his defensive responsibilities. he has become a significantly better player under Bylsma and in no way has he regressed. This is a Bylsma success story.

Neal, on the other hand, was not a "nothing" before coming to Pittsburgh. He was a high-end offensive talent whom many believed was untouchable in Dallas, and if not, would command a huge return. The consensus at the time of the draft was that Shero fleeced his Dallas counterpart. Neal has grown into a better offensive player here, but he had three 20 goal seasons before coming to Pittsburgh.

If you're going to fault Bylsma, pick legitimate faults -- there are plenty to discuss. This is not one of them.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:12 am

Bylsma thought everything was peachy after game 3 and explicitly said that they didn't need to change anything.

That's why he should be fired.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Guinness on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:46 am

I'm not a guy who can watch a game on television and be able to recognize as a matter of course whether a team has changed its overall strategy in the middle of a game, as a rule - I mean, I can see when a team has opened things up, sent defensemen into the zone, etc., or when they're tightening up and clogging up the neutral zone, etc., but with the speed of the game and the limitations of television viewing, it's difficult for a relatively inexperienced person like me to glance at the screen and say with certainty what strategy a team is employing.

All of that is to preface the following question - is it at all typical for an NHL team to adapt on the fly, or even in the midst of a series? How often would an NHL coach review tape and decide that his strategy is being effectively countered and decide to adapt? The consensus here seems to be that Bylsma essentially refused to do so, so I wonder how typical it would be for a coach to actually do that? Jesse/mikey, your input in particular would be especially welcome here.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:48 am

That's a good question. I wouldn't have been able to really judge whether or not bylsma adjusted - had he not stated he wasn't going to.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:24 am

shmenguin wrote:That's a good question. I wouldn't have been able to really judge whether or not bylsma adjusted - had he not stated he wasn't going to.

Did he make changes to his line combinations? (other than inserting TK on the 4th) - NO
Did he make changes to a PP that went 0-15? - NO
Did he change the stretch pass style that was countered by CJ's "onion defense"? - NO
Did he try and jam the crease in front of TR instead of just firing pucks from the point? -NO
Was he able to get through to his players that individual effort wasn't enough, that only a team could beat the B's? - NO

Was anyone surprised at his lack of andjustment given his mantra of "Getting to our game"?

I know that I wasn't.

Shmenguin, you have good hockey knowledge, I've been reading your posts long enough to see that. I'm sure it didn't take HCDB telling you he wasn't going to adjust to see that no adjustments were being made.

When you're on the brink of elimination, down 0-3, you shouldn't be waiting until the third period of game four to be making adjustments anyway.

I just realized that your post was in response to Guiness post which I hadn't read.

Guiness, give yourself more credit than that man.

Jesse and Mikey have superior hockey knowledge than I do, but you don't have to have a Phd in Hockey to tell when coaches make most in game adjustments.
Last edited by ExPatriatePen on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Caputi19 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:30 am

My Thing With Dan Is His Adjustments, They Dont Exsist. Why Move IgInla Off Sids Line When It Allowed Him To Be More Comfortable. It Showed. His Lineups For Games Were A Joke.

Ps Niskanen For Bag Of pucks
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby NashvilleCat on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:19 am

If the last four years don't get Bylsma fired then next year might get both Shero and Bylsma fired.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby no name on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:52 am

Guinness wrote:I'm not a guy who can watch a game on television and be able to recognize as a matter of course whether a team has changed its overall strategy in the middle of a game, as a rule - I mean, I can see when a team has opened things up, sent defensemen into the zone, etc., or when they're tightening up and clogging up the neutral zone, etc., but with the speed of the game and the limitations of television viewing, it's difficult for a relatively inexperienced person like me to glance at the screen and say with certainty what strategy a team is employing.

All of that is to preface the following question - is it at all typical for an NHL team to adapt on the fly, or even in the midst of a series? How often would an NHL coach review tape and decide that his strategy is being effectively countered and decide to adapt? The consensus here seems to be that Bylsma essentially refused to do so, so I wonder how typical it would be for a coach to actually do that? Jesse/mikey, your input in particular would be especially welcome here.


You are right with TV you really can't tell what them change. When they focus on the defencemen getting the puck you can't see the forwards breakout patterns and vice versa.

But 1 thing i can assume in questions that you asked.
1. It is not uncommon for a team to adopt changes in a game or mid series. If Dan did do this it did not work. Games 3 and 4 showed commitment to defence but the team had little experience at it for it to work. Pens vs caps in 91 the pens switched to a 1-4 delay (the trap) and came back 3-1 to win the series. When a offenisvly gifted team plays a defensive game (see Detroit) they can win based on the talent level and skill being greater. Capitalizing on the few chances they will get. Not a exciting brand of hockey but a winning brand.

If the pens played that defenisve game instead of run and gun vs the islanders and senators they would of had the experience of playing a defence first system and would of stood a better chance at beating the Bruins.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Desiato on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:56 am

NashvilleCat wrote:If the last four years don't get Bylsma fired then next year might get both Shero and Bylsma fired.


I agree. I can't see Shero sitting on his hands. His expectations of this roster appear as high as anyone else.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Sarcastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:41 pm

Agree with this article and also Kovacevic's where they criticizes Bylsma's lack of adjustments. His idea of coaching is to let the guys do what they want, not completely, but in the sense that he relies on the skill that's on this team more so than on his own strategy. All series long, it seemed like he was just waiting for OUR SKILL to take over and begin getting lucky. We, that didn't happen and he didn't do anything to come up with something else, so there you go. 4 games, all the same, with the same outcome. If not for the skill this team has, he'd be shown as a fraud a long time ago. I'm sorry, but it's true. I can't even believe he took Bennett off Malkin's wing when he looked so good and certainly better than Iginla.

I've supported Bylsma for a long time because I really like him as a person, but this franchise keeps missing chances at the Cup while having two historically great players and, what should be, easier time considering little competition in the East in recent years. I'm sure Mario and Shero are extremely angry and they should be. Wasted time. Wasted opportunities. If, at least, the series was competitive and right to the end and we happened to come up just a little short, it'd be easier to swallow. But 2 goals in 14 periods while doing the same thing over and over and hoping for a different result is the stupid way. As I said in another thread, there wasn't a moment in this series where I felt we could win.

It is we, the fans, who invest time, money, and a whole lot of emotion and we deserve better.
Last edited by Sarcastic on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby llipgh2 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:42 pm

Today is exit interview day. Rossi noted that unlike previous exit days, Ray Shero will NOT speak to the media.

Rather telling.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:48 pm

Sid and Geno's urge? Or is that coaching? Is the direction on the bench "get the puck to Sid" or is it "get to a shooting position so Sid can get you the puck". Never seemed like they had a ton of support when they had the puck, which undoubtedly contributed to the complete lack of time and space.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby no name on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:22 pm

Pitt87 wrote:Sid and Geno's urge? Or is that coaching? Is the direction on the bench "get the puck to Sid" or is it "get to a shooting position so Sid can get you the puck". Never seemed like they had a ton of support when they had the puck, which undoubtedly contributed to the complete lack of time and space.



In games 3 and 4 we worked so hard on playing defensively and we played great. If we played a defensive game vs Ottawa and NYI, we would of had a flying chance once we faced the Bruins. But Dan B when to a run and gun system vs thoes teams and didn't realize until game 3 that this system wouldn't work. When you take on a defence first system you got to have a counter attack. This takes practice to learn.

I was worried when we played Ott and NYI that averaging 4 goals per game wasn't playoff hockey as I remember it. Switching gears to defence after 2 game vs the Bruins the team had no experience at generating offence in a system like that.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby DontToewsMeBro on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:30 pm

I can't count how many times in Game 4 that they would literally flip the puck into the air like a hail mary pass and the Bruins would simply settle it down and break up ice again...it was just painful to watch. It was fairly obvious that the players didn't have a clue.

Sometimes Bylsma looks like he's just "there"...
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby SolidSnake on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:33 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:I can't count how many times in Game 4 that they would literally flip the puck into the air like a hail mary pass and the Bruins would simply settle it down and break up ice again...it was just painful to watch. It was fairly obvious that the players didn't have a clue.

Sometimes Bylsma looks like he's just "there"...

I agree, what's even funnier is why the yes men are blindly following the Pens, especially lolysma
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby skullman80 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:38 pm

From the Pens twitter...

#Pens coach Bylsma on Fleury - "He's our No. 1 goalie for this franchise and he will be going forward."
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby Pitt87 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:41 pm

no name wrote:
Pitt87 wrote:Sid and Geno's urge? Or is that coaching? Is the direction on the bench "get the puck to Sid" or is it "get to a shooting position so Sid can get you the puck". Never seemed like they had a ton of support when they had the puck, which undoubtedly contributed to the complete lack of time and space.



In games 3 and 4 we worked so hard on playing defensively and we played great. If we played a defensive game vs Ottawa and NYI, we would of had a flying chance once we faced the Bruins. But Dan B when to a run and gun system vs thoes teams and didn't realize until game 3 that this system wouldn't work. When you take on a defence first system you got to have a counter attack. This takes practice to learn.

I was worried when we played Ott and NYI that averaging 4 goals per game wasn't playoff hockey as I remember it. Switching gears to defence after 2 game vs the Bruins the team had no experience at generating offence in a system like that.


The shift in game 2 was completely eviscerated when Marchand stole the puck and went the distance. There was no adjustment whatsoever in-game. HCDB did zero to take pressure off of 87 and 71. Nothing.

Frankly, it was HCDB that didn't bother to come back in this series. No adjustments, no alteration to the plan, not even the same plan with a more basic approach to get better looks at Rask. How many times did he hustle 71 and 18 onto the ice when the FO was on the left of Rask? It didn't work once. The B's saw it coming every time and sent someone out there to stop the shot.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby ville5 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:14 pm

skullman80 wrote:From the Pens twitter...

#Pens coach Bylsma on Fleury - "He's our No. 1 goalie for this franchise and he will be going forward."

Seems kind of a hollow statement. And managements actions spoke louder than words. They have ZERO faith left in MAF.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby bse on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:19 pm

ville5 wrote:
skullman80 wrote:From the Pens twitter...

#Pens coach Bylsma on Fleury - "He's our No. 1 goalie for this franchise and he will be going forward."

Seems kind of a hollow statement. And managements actions spoke louder than words. They have ZERO faith left in MAF.


Hopefully they also have zero faith in Bylsma. I know I have.


Sources: Pens’ chairman Lemieux may order ouster of coach Bylsma

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_spo ... 8j5rQV0WHN
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:22 pm

Please don't quote the NYP as a reliable media source.

LULZ

No personal offense (unless you're aware of the lack of journalistic integrity of that publication)
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby llipgh2 on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:24 pm

bse wrote:

Sources: Pens’ chairman Lemieux may order ouster of coach Bylsma

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_spo ... 8j5rQV0WHN


Above link truncated. This is the correct link. Also, it's Larry Brooks, who is on a rabid "DB to Rangers!" kick.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/fired_up_reF8AjV9HXqj8j5rQV0WHN
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby bse on Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:26 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Please don't quote the NYP as a reliable media source.

LULZ

No personal offense (unless you're aware of the lack of journalistic integrity of that publication)


I know Brooks, but everyone else is tight lipped right now. Even if his sources are fabrications, I'm sure Mario is going to have a long look at this.
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Re: Allan Muir of SI tells it like it is

Postby columbia on Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:44 pm

re: trying to split the defense

Malkin spent most of the season trying to do that (and to little effect).
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