Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:19 pm

Yeah, that website is just amazing. It reads more like a satire page than a legitimate site.

Factorial, I'll actually be braving the mean streets of Lancaster tonight. Going to check out Annie Bailey's and stop by the Friendly Greek for some bottles.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Factorial on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:20 pm

Watch out for:

Image
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:24 pm

:lol:
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:25 pm

Factorial wrote:The trial is not over but it does appear to be heading to not guilty. Can he instead be found guilty of manslaughter? Does anyone think that his actions (playing junior Police Officer) didn't lead/contribute to a death of another person?


I was curious about this myself. He in the end is ultimately responsible for the death of another human being and I highly doubt the argument could be made that it was purely accidental and that it was ENTIRELY self defense. If Martin approaches him, follows him, then starts to try to beat him up, then yeah, that's entirely self defense, but the first two are clearly not the case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:25 pm

Factorial wrote:The trial is not over but it does appear to be heading to not guilty. Can he instead be found guilty of manslaughter? Does anyone think that his actions (playing junior Police Officer) didn't lead/contribute to a death of another person?


They certainly did.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:34 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
Factorial wrote:The trial is not over but it does appear to be heading to not guilty. Can he instead be found guilty of manslaughter? Does anyone think that his actions (playing junior Police Officer) didn't lead/contribute to a death of another person?


They certainly did.

And that's entirely irrelevant to the current case. It might be stupid to tail someone but its not illegal. No one got hurt until Martin decided to use physical force. This is all on him.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:35 pm

lol, i'm listening in for a few seconds here. they have a medical expert on the stand going over the injuries to zimmerman by the picture taken the night of the killing. the defense attorney is trying over and over and over again to get her to say that Martin struck him numerous times, and she keeps saying, "it's possible."
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:38 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Froggy wrote:you just get the feeling that the whole national powder keg is gonna blow after this one.


It's OJ all over again. (with respect to the division along racial lines)

I'd hope inner city police departments everywhere are training for this eventuality NOW.

So if I'm white and siding with the Hispanic over the black guy what does that mean for race relations?

I can honestly say I'd be supporting Martin if the roles were revearsed. I'm concerned about a guilty verdict will impact self defense laws. I guess people just need to take a beating instead of beng able to defend themselves.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:39 pm

count2infinity wrote:lol, i'm listening in for a few seconds here. they have a medical expert on the stand going over the injuries to zimmerman by the picture taken the night of the killing. the defense attorney is trying over and over and over again to get her to say that Martin struck him numerous times, and she keeps saying, "it's possible."

And that's all he needs to do, this is a state witness who again hasn't done one thing to prove their own case.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:41 pm

I'm just commenting on how funny I find the entire conversation. "It's possible." "It's possible." "It's possible." That's mostly what I'm hearing from her.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby newarenanow on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:53 pm

Can someone give me a bullet point summary of this trial? I was out of town last week on vacation and didn't pay any attention.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Tue Jul 02, 2013 2:57 pm

newarenanow wrote:Can someone give me a bullet point summary of this trial? I was out of town last week on vacation and didn't pay any attention.


-Zimmerman followed Martin as a member of the night watch in his complex (my words, not the official words)
-Almost everyone that the prosecution is bringing to the stand seems to have a story put together that they heard a scuffle (fight)
-Eye witnesses report that Martin was on top of Zimmerman during the altercation

Really that's about it. There have been weird details such as Martin calling Zimmerman a crazy ass cracker, but really that's about it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:20 pm

Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.

shafnutz05 wrote:But he WAS a neighborhood patrol officer (we can debate the merits of that job on another day).

But I don't think you can debate that on another day, because I think it's the heart of the case and why he was charged with Murder 2 instead of manslaughter.

It goes to the so-called 'depraved state of mind', that he went into the confrontation - that he himself initiated, against the express direction of the 911 operator (yes, I know..... "not legally enforceable"....), which he lied to the police about in his initial statement - believing Martin to be a criminal (repeated use of the word "suspect"), and he George Aloysius Zimmerman was NOT going to let 'one of them' get away with it this time.

I don't necessarily agree with that assessment; this is a pretty clear case of manslaughter if you ask me. But that whole notion of George Zimmerman, Neighborhood Defender of Justice is very much a central aspect of the case.

columbia wrote:Zimmerman Prosecutor Angela Corey Criminally Indicted By Citizens' Grand Jury For Allegedly Falsifying Arrest Warrant And Complaint
http://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/prne ... 02/CL41488

Isn't that pretty much like having someone call you a bad name on TV? There's no authority behind it. It's just..... electrons.

DelPen wrote:If a reasonable person would reasonably fear they could suffer great bodily harm or death it's justified.

This is where the physical and forensic evidence will be critical.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:22 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.


Doesn't that completely go against normal procedure?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:24 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.


Doesn't that completely go against normal procedure?


Even Zimmermans "cleaned up" wounds would be a factor if I were a jurist.

He didn't do that to himself.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 5:52 pm

MRandall25 wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.


Doesn't that completely go against normal procedure?

Yes it does, and it's further evidence that the Sanford PD is staffed by buffoons. If you read back through this thread, that's been my main complaint about everything -- whether Zimmerman was guilty or innocent, the effectiveness of a criminal prosecution was compromised by general incompetence on the part of the investigating police. There was no blood panel done on Zimmerman to check BAC or drugs, there was no real effort to identify the body (Martin's corpse laid as a John Doe in the city morgue for like 3-4 days), they didn't photograph Zimmerman's injuries before they were cleaned...... they were just a joke of a PD.

I've maintained from early on in this story that the Sanford PD patrol officers are the only actors who can rightly be described as acting in a somewhat race-related way. It was as if they had a dead black kid and a dude claiming he shot the kid in self-defense and made the determination of self-defense there on the spot and then that was that. It wasn't until the detectives arrived and began questioning Zimmerman that any semblance of police work really seems to have taken place.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:09 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:
tifosi77 wrote:
Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.


Doesn't that completely go against normal procedure?

Yes it does, and it's further evidence that the Sanford PD is staffed by buffoons. If you read back through this thread, that's been my main complaint about everything -- whether Zimmerman was guilty or innocent, the effectiveness of a criminal prosecution was compromised by general incompetence on the part of the investigating police. There was no blood panel done on Zimmerman to check BAC or drugs, there was no real effort to identify the body (Martin's corpse laid as a John Doe in the city morgue for like 3-4 days), they didn't photograph Zimmerman's injuries before they were cleaned...... they were just a joke of a PD.

I've maintained from early on in this story that the Sanford PD patrol officers are the only actors who can rightly be described as acting in a somewhat race-related way. It was as if they had a dead black kid and a dude claiming he shot the kid in self-defense and made the determination of self-defense there on the spot and then that was that. It wasn't until the detectives arrived and began questioning Zimmerman that any semblance of police work really seems to have taken place.

Even then they weren't going to charge him IIRC.

It was the media, driven by racial pressures, that finally convinced the DA to press charges.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:33 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:It was the media, driven by racial pressures, that finally convinced the DA to press charges.

And not the local DA, but rather a special prosecutor appointed by the governor. Consequently, the prosecuting attorneys in this case have the unenviable task of trying charges that their own office didn’t choose to bring. To be honest, I’m thinking the prosecutors in this case are probably ticked off about trying the overreaching charges brought by the special prosecutor and are well aware that their case is a turkey. I’ve had civil cases where I knew I was going to lose, but the client wanted to continue, so I went through the motions and did the best I could on the way to inevitable defeat. I think the prosecution is calling all of these witnesses—witnesses who appear to be helping the defense more than the state—not because they think those witnesses will help convict Zimmerman but rather out of their professional and ethical obligation to present the jury all of the evidence of the case. That way, if the jury acquits, they can honestly say "Hey, don’t look at us; we gave the jury all of the facts of the case, and the people of the jury made their decision. That's how the system works.”
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Firebird on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:29 pm

count2infinity wrote:
Factorial wrote:The trial is not over but it does appear to be heading to not guilty. Can he instead be found guilty of manslaughter? Does anyone think that his actions (playing junior Police Officer) didn't lead/contribute to a death of another person?


I was curious about this myself. He in the end is ultimately responsible for the death of another human being and I highly doubt the argument could be made that it was purely accidental and that it was ENTIRELY self defense. If Martin approaches him, follows him, then starts to try to beat him up, then yeah, that's entirely self defense, but the first two are clearly not the case.


This is not 2nd degree murder...The reason he was brought up on 2nd degree was because of media pressure.

The trial should be for manslaughter at the most - and even at that it would be hard to garner a conviction
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Firebird on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:32 pm

tifosi77 wrote:
Firebird wrote:This never would've made it to trial if the police released the photo's of a beat up Zimmerman, as opposed to waiting 2 months.

The police didn't actually have any pictures of 'beat up' Zimmerman. The only photos taken at the scene were shot by a neighbor, the cops never got a picture of Zimmerman's wounds before they were cleaned up by the EMT.


They showed photos in court taken in the police station with dried up blood on the back of his head, right?

Also, I'm sure the neighbor showed his photo some where soon after the shooting. They chose not to share it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:34 pm

Not up to snuff with my legal knowledge:

What would they have to prove for a manslaughter conviction?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Froggy on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:42 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Not up to snuff with my legal knowledge:

What would they have to prove for a manslaughter conviction?

i think that the use of deadly force wasn't necessary based on the physical threat?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Firebird on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:42 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Not up to snuff with my legal knowledge:

What would they have to prove for a manslaughter conviction?


I believe manslaughter would be something like escalating a "kerfuffle" into a full on "fight". Something along the lines of being provoked into killing someone, no?

Maybe you swing at me, knock me over, and stare at me laughing from a few yards away and I pull my gun and shoot you?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Tue Jul 02, 2013 7:53 pm

Froggy wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Not up to snuff with my legal knowledge:

What would they have to prove for a manslaughter conviction?

i think that the use of deadly force wasn't necessary based on the physical threat?


IF that is the case, it still isnt exactly a slam dunk for the prosecution.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Shyster on Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:00 pm

The various grades of homicide are typically differentiated by the intent of the person doing the killing. If you act with the specific intent to kill someone, that is typically murder. Murder often includes actions taking with reckless indifference to life (often referred to as “depraved heart”), such as firing a gun into a crowd of people. Manslaughter is the killing of another human being as a result of culpable negligence. In other words, it applies when you didn’t intend to kill anyone but you did something that you should have known could or would result in death and it in fact caused a death.

The proviso “without legal justification” applies to all of these concepts. For example, a SWAT sniper who shoots a hostage-taker in the head certainly intended to kill him, but his actions would be legally justified. A killing done in reasonable self-defense would also be justified.
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