Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 teams)

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If true:

Let him walk after next season and take a final run with him as #1 Dman
11
5%
Sign him and Malkin, rest of the roster be damned
12
5%
Sign him and trade Malkin/let Malkin walk
0
No votes
Trade Letang at draft/before season starts
202
83%
Shut up NAN
18
7%
 
Total votes : 243

Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby joker10277 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:38 am

Froggy wrote:
joker10277 wrote:
Froggy wrote:bylsma is guilty of failing to polish turds. the combination of late first round draft picks, coupled with immediate superstars with no need for development gives the illusion that our staff is failing in that regard.


You may be right that disco hasn't had anyone to develop, but I think your wrong about the second part and if you need proof just ask the Chicago Blackhawks. They've won two cups and made big trades immediately following those wins. They can do that because, they know how to draft and develop their own players, RS could learn something from them.

but chicago also had the core of Toews, Kane, and Sharp... young superstars who jumped straight to the NHL without needing seasoning in the minors

That's the point, they had guys come straight to the Nhl, but they also drafted and developed Shaw, krueger, bolland, bickell, saad, hjalmarsson,keith,seabrook, crawford along with trades they made with other guys they drafted. That's the difference between chicago and the pens, chicago developed the supporting cast, the pens haven't.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:38 am

btw, we lost the boston series because our world class players were held off the score sheet... not because we didn't dress freaking joe vitale over craig adams, or whatever
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby bhaw on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:44 am

Pavel Bure wrote:Wait a second. Your whole argument is that DB isn't developing talent because he's not creating 4th line players that are a dime a dozen every free agency? I don't get it.


This started because I said we need the coaches to develop 3rd and 4th liners due to Letangs contract. We were paying Cooke 1.9 and TK 2m for third line duty and Glass 1.1m to play on the fourth. Letangs new contract won't give us that luxury. So if they are dime a dozen, we apparently can't find the dime a dozen guys at the fourth line store.

So yes, that was the point initially then everyone went off on the fact we don't have another superstar for DB to groom. The other statement I made was that up to this point DB hasn't proven he can do so, which you all seem to affirm with your "there are no players to groom" argument. My point is that there should be some 3rd and 4th liners he could have made so e progress on right now. Apparently Tangradi not playing on Malkins wing was somehow relevant to the discussion.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby bhaw on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:46 am

Froggy wrote:yeah, you can either pay a rookie 500k to do a job and cross your fingers, or a vet 500k to do a job and have a documented sample size. TOTAL FAIL!


That's the point. We aren't paying any vets 500k to do so. Adams is the only one who is below 1m that's a vet. Going back... Letangs contract will force us to make more 500k guys work. And since the vets don't really come that cheap in real life, it will have to be a young guy. Of course, if we can find a proven vet at that price, they are interchangeable. The roster hasn't been composed of that... Hence the original comment.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:48 am

Thank you for finally answering.

I think the reason most of the guys mentioned (TK, Vitale, Bortuzzo, Engelland) are sitting because they have faults and/or their ceiling just isn't that high.

TK was not what his 20 goal season made him out to be. He regressed because he's just not that good of a hockey player. Is he a guy who can go out, grind, and bring energy? Yeah, but as Mikey has said in the past, he has almost 0 hockey sense. He had a bad year this year. Not sure you can quite call it "regressed", but he was not typical TK. I think we saw flashes of regular TK in the playoffs, but all in all, he was not on his game (excuse the saying) throughout the year.

Bortuzzo and Engelland are basically the same player. They're a 6th or 7th dman on a normal team. But because we have so much cap tied up in such few players, that is what we have to deal with because they're cheap. Bortuzzo really did not look as good as some have made him out to be. He struggled to stay on his skates for a good majority of his ice time. Hopefully he'll work on it during the offseason.

Vitale is interesting. Yes, the 4th line looks good with him, but there's something about him I can't quite put my finger on. I don't know if it's a stamina thing or what, but it seems like he plays 4 or 5 good games in a row and then just drops off, which leads to a sitting. He'll come back strong again, then drop off. Rinse, repeat. He also has a tendency to take some bad penalties (for example, the one which negated a power play for us in the Boston series stands out to me).

But again, what has Bylsma had to work with for the bottom 6? None of the guys in WBS can crack the NHL. The guys he's had haven't exactly been good, but it definitely appears (to me, anyway) that theseguys (minus Despres) really don't have much more to give. What you saw is what you got from TK, Bort, Engo, and Vitale. I really don't think they have more to offer.

Now Despres, the "not developing" is severely overblown. He's 21 years old and this was basically jis first real taste of an NHL season. Just because he isn't Kris Letang yet doesn't mean he isn't developing. Everyone is on a different curve. Definitely interested in what he has to offer next year.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:51 am

and it won't matter who are 4th liners are if our first liners get shut out for a whole series, especially if we have so much payroll invested in them. but bylsma should have coached crosby, malkin, neal, kunitz, iginla, dupuis, etc... to not not score, right?
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:52 am

And for the record, I prefer the short posts, because I don't like wasting time typing out huge posts on my phone (notice the errors and general technology failures in the above post).
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:53 am

The Bylsma can't develop young players and hates young players thing seems to have really come about for two reasons. One is Tangradi, who a bunch of people cried about "not getting a chance" even though every time they gave him a chance, he blew it, and then he went to Winnipeg and continued to suck. It's not Bylsma's fault he sucked. And then there's the whole, "he hates Vitale, Bennett, Despres, etc. and doesn't know how to use them" thing. First of all, the main reason none of those guys got regular playing time is because the team had really good depth. They were scratching Vitale and Bennett throughout the playoffs, for example. They were also scratching Jokinen, who played at a 25 goal pace during the regular season. They scratched Kennedy, who just got traded for a second round pick. There wasn't even room for some established guys in the lineup, let alone some of the younger guys. As far as Despres goes, people want too much too soon. If they got Despres on the ice as much as wanted, the thinking would then turn to how much he sucks and how they ruined him by overexposing him. Despres is following the same path that Letang and Goligoski did, essentially.

Now that the depth has taken a hit due to the cap coming down, those guys will see increased roles and will continue progressing because they have talent and belong in the NHL. The other side of the coin is that the Pens haven't had a lot of talent coming up the system. First round picks from both 2007 and 2008 were traded. In fact, they basically sat out the 2008 draft. They've picked late in the first round every year since then. Despres and Bennett are breaking through, Morrow got traded, the more recent first round picks are still a decent ways away. Most of the rookies that have come up under Bylsma were undrafted college free agents like Letestu, Lovejoy, and Wallace or a sixth round pick like Jeffrey. And for the record both Letestu and Lovejoy experienced some success here and are making something of themselves elsewhere since the depth pushed them out of the Pens organization. But to put it simply, Bylsma hasn't had much to work with with young talent until recently. Tangradi is the only prospect of note that has made it to the NHL and failed in recent years, but again that's not Bylsma's fault.

I'm far from a Bylsma apologist but this thing needs to go. He doesn't have a vendetta against young players and he isn't routinely botching the development of young players. If anyone deserves blame for the Pens not bringing up a lot of young talent, it's on Shero due to poor drafting and liberal trading of draft picks.
Last edited by Henry Hank on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:53 am

well said
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:56 am

Probably said that better than I did 5 minutes earlier (not that I'm trying to be all "But I was first!" Just commenting on my tendency to ramble at 1 AM)
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:10 am

Another thing about TK this year:

He had 8 days to get used to playing with Sutter before the season started. That's not anywhere near enough time for a player like TK to transition from a player like Jordan Staal to one like Sutter.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby bhaw on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:14 am

MRandall25 wrote:Thank you for finally answering.


That's probably the 3rd time I said the same things in the last hour, FYI.

Froggy wrote:and it won't matter who are 4th liners are if our first liners get shut out for a whole series, especially if we have so much payroll invested in them. but bylsma should have coached crosby, malkin, neal, kunitz, iginla, dupuis, etc... to not not score, right?


Not sure what playoff performance has to do with managing the cap with younger, cheaper players. If you want to go down the Bylsma playoff road, go ahead. It's pretty beat up. Also, this pretty much disputes your previous point that we need to pay for vets instead of young guys since it won't matter.

HH and all...

So basically all I'm seeing are reasons he hasn't developed anyone yet. I never claimed he has a vendetta against young guys, so if you are attributing that argument to my question, that's not going to slide. It seems like at the very best, DB CAN develop talent but he hasn't been able to prove he can do so yet based on what everyone is agreeing with from HH. However, given the original premise, the concern would still apply... with Letang's new deal, DB will have to develop more talent as we won't have the luxury of paying $2m to 3rd liners and $1m to 4th liners. He hasn't proven he can do so yet (whether you believe he can't (me) or just hasn't had the chance to do so (others) remains to be seen). Fair?
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Froggy on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:34 am

i'm talking about the playoffs because we had the best winning percentage as a team that we have EVER had during the regular season, and finished first overall in the conference for what... the 2nd time EVER? total coaching failure...

then we did struggle against the isles, but bylsma made adjustments in both the game plan and the line up, and we ended up winning... coaching failure...

then we dominated ottawa pretty much start to finish, even causing the senators to comment on how badly they were outclassed... coaching failure...

then we lost to boston in 4 games largely in part due to the fact that the 2 best players in the world and one of the best d men in the world did jack squat. not sure how you game plan around that. I don't care what 4th liners he trots out, or what game plan he puts into effect... when our best players, specifically Crosby, Malkin, and Letang are not active on the score sheet for an entire playoff series, we lose. And since we apparently won all throughout the regular season and first 2 rounds of the playoffs DESPITE an inept coach, shouldn't they have been able to follow suit against boston?

going forward with how this team is structured, we NEED out top players... specifically THOSE THREE PLAYERS to be out best players night in and night out. No coach in the world... i don't care if he's scotty bowman circa 1977... will win if they generate nothing for an entire series.

THAT'S why i bring up the playoffs
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby MRandall25 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:39 am

How can one distinguish between "not developing" and "hitting their ceiling"?

Because, what I think is happening, you're seeing a player who is playing to his limited capabilities and wondering why Bylsma isnt making him play above them. You can't teach more talent than what players already have, and I think that is where the disagreement (or divide, or whatever) lies between you and us.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Sarcastic on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:16 am

Pavel Bure wrote:It was Letang's 2nd year in the league when DB took over. Under DB he's developed into a Norris caliber d-man.


To be fair, he still makes boneheaded plays and can't run the PP. So I'm thinking most of what he accomplished so far as been mostly due to natural skill, and not exactly Bylsma's coaching. In fact, I would say it is because of Bylsma and his staff that he hasn't reached his full potential as of yet.

But as far as forwards, I think Shero just hasn't been drafting players worth much in the skill department.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:53 am

I don't think the "development" thing is an issue with Bylsma. If there is an issue with ceiling its because Shero artificially lowers it by filling out the 10-16 forwards on the depth chart with vets. Its a miracle that Bennett is probably getting a chance in the top 6 this year. I think this last year was when the team finally developed enough to the point where they had no choice but to allow rookies onto the roster when everyone was healthy.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby no name on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:58 am

Sarcastic wrote:
Pavel Bure wrote:It was Letang's 2nd year in the league when DB took over. Under DB he's developed into a Norris caliber d-man.


To be fair, he still makes boneheaded plays and can't run the PP. So I'm thinking most of what he accomplished so far as been mostly due to natural skill, and not exactly Bylsma's coaching. In fact, I would say it is because of Bylsma and his staff that he hasn't reached his full potential as of yet.

But as far as forwards, I think Shero just hasn't been drafting players worth much in the skill department.


I have to agree with Sarcastic, i think under Therian Letang would of grown into a complete 2 way defenceman. He has the skills to play that game its Bylsmas system that allows him to be that rover during 5 on 5 play.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby slappybrown on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:06 am

Letang "can't run the PP" is really something. No doubt he can improve his decision making but come on.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby the wicked child on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:07 am

WTH happened in here?
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby columbia on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:24 am

Alcohol?
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Beveridge on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:42 am

Pavel has good points...that's my contribution to this.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby headh on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:56 am

Dupuis going from being a roughly 12 goal and 30 point guy to a 40 goal guy (on pace) should count as player development.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Crankshaft on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:57 am

headh wrote:Dupuis going from being a roughly 12 goal and 30 point guy to a 40 goal guy (on pace) should count as player development.


Step 1 of player development: Put on line with Sidney Crosby

Spoiler:
(hides while everyone comes running to remind me he produced without Crosby)
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:14 am

Step 3: Profit.
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Re: Letang Extended; 8 years 7.25mm, Limited no trade (15 te

Postby headh on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:29 am

Step 2: Produce at a career high level while playing zero PP minutes and Sid sits around sipping his food through a straw. Duper just balls
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