The Pens direction so far

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The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:11 pm

I'm not sure I like the Pens approach with these re-signings/signing. Age is working against them here and they don't seem to be countering whatsoever. For example Dupuis who is 34 will be 38 when his contract is up. Kunitz who is 33 will be 36 when his new deal ends. Scuderi just signed 4 years and will be 38 when his deal expires. Adams 2 more years will make him 38 when his expires.

Too many players signed here at once that are older. I agree with and am happy on the Dupuis signing but not so much on the Kunitz signing. His value was putting pressure on the D with ridiculous hits that sadly has vanished a bit in fear of being ejected, penalized, fined, suspended...whatever with this new approach the league has taken watching hits like that. The opposition has begun to try to take that hit from behind to realize a power play out of it. Something has to give here. Kunitz needs to adjust otherwise he is not worth very much.
Scuderi is going to provide good service early on...atleast we all hope so but again he is getting older and getting a nice chunk of money tied up. How good are these near 35 year old players going to be in 2-3 years?

The Pens are way beyond needing veteran leadership or needing players who have experience. They have enough of that to go around several times over.

I wish the Pens would have kept Dupuis but made the attempt to get a little younger. Instead they have solidified being the oldest team in the NHL with all these signings. A list you don't want to be #1 on.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Steve Dave on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:17 pm

Kunitz will be 38 when his deal ends.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby wondermoose on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:22 pm

It makes sense to keep the older guys while Shero attempts to (maybe) reload the farm. The thought process, since Shero has come to power, has been build around the core. They can find people to start replacing the Dupuis and Kunitz of the League. I would have liked to have seen them made a move for the latter lines that would make them tougher to play against, maybe sign someone they can get under an opponent's skin. They currently have zero people on the roster who is remotely good at that. Too many professionals is a bad thing.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby supermario on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:24 pm

I tend to Agree. These contracts will take a lot of these guys into the twilight of their careers.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby taz71 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:34 pm

I disagree. These are proven players shoring up our top 6 F and top 4 D and allowing other players to break in if able. Allows our D prospects to gain value and above all let the time pass while the salary cap increases and our prospects get better or develop more trade value.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby BleuLineLady on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:37 pm

The core is still very young:

Crosby
Malkin
Neal
Letang
Sutter

Along with Bennett, Despres and Bortuzzo

The old guys are Orpik, Scuderi, Kunitz, Dupuis and Adams

I dont think Shero is done, actually he cant be done, they have an open spot on the third line, so we'll see what he does. He has more moves ahead. Overall though, I'm happy with the Scuderi signing. They need to do everything they can to play defensively strong in front of Fleury. I dont think age is an issue right now for the Pens, maybe in the future it will be but 3 years from now is 3 years from now. A lot can and will change between then and now.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Crankshaft on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:08 pm

Much of what you're talking about had been covered extensively in the free agency thred. After seeing the types of contracts being dished out today, I don't see how anyone could really complain about how this team is being built right now.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:20 pm

The real problem here is that "old" doesn't equal "cups". The Pens are infatuated with the role Guerin played and haven't realized that they had one or two old guys on that 2009 roster getting meaningful PT. The Pens are heading the opposite direction of the NHL.

Chicago didn't want an award for putting Saad on the #1 line, they did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. Bylsma wants to act like putting a young guy out there is an act of chivalry. Ridiculous! If he had been coaching earlier, Staal wouldn't have made the freaking team, Sid would've been on the 3rd line, and Letang would still be in WB.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby GeoTank on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:25 pm

The guys they are keeping and acquiring who will be in their late 30's don't have injury issues.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby pressure=9Pa on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:32 pm

At their cap hits, the guys that will be older will be very tradable late in their contracts to teams that are looking for 1-2 years and 1-2 more pieces. Particularly so if the cap expands beyond projections. Although I owuld have liked to add more speed, I'm not upset at the direction.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Beveridge on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:37 pm

Grass is always greener.

I want you to imagine Dupuis, Kunitz and Neal for that matter all on the free agent market today. The Pens having Sid and Geno signed at the contracts they have.

Now look at the money tossed out today. If you can fill in the top 6 with 3 players at the price we have those 3 guys signed for today while making our top 6 better, I'll give you everything I own.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby pens_CT on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:43 pm

At the end of the day it comes down to the coach being able to adapt his system to playoff hockey, and the goalie making 5 mil/year playing well in the playoffs. If those things don't happen it doesn't matter whether you have old or young, gritty or soft players to fill up the remainder of the roster. The end result is the same.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby DelPen on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:44 pm

It would cost more to replace them and these are also the guys you end up trading high picks and prospects for anyways.

Adams is also cheaper than some guys on entry level deals with high 2-way NHL amounts. Niskanen just needs I be moved for a 3rd line RW and we are set.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby offsides on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:51 pm

DelPen wrote:It would cost more to replace them and these are also the guys you end up trading high picks and prospects for anyways.

Adams is also cheaper than some guys on entry level deals with high 2-way NHL amounts. Niskanen just needs I be moved for a 3rd line RW and we are set.


Set until a couple injuries to forwards. Not much forward depth that I know of.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby FLPensFan on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:52 pm

I tend to agree with the original poster. I am not overly impressed with the some of the decisions the Pens and Shero have made since the playoffs ended. One of the biggest things where I see Shero giving in is age/term and NMC. Shero had always been against giving mid-30 players 3 or more years, yet we just gave 2 players FOUR years. Shero has usually been against giving NMC.....HOGWASH I say. The Pens now lead the league with TWELVE roster players with some form of NMC. TWELVE!!!! Half the roster.

-Letang is part of the core, and deserved a NMC. Don't really have a problem with the salary or term. A bit more than I wanted to see, but a lot less than he could have gotten as a UFA.

-Dupuis, again, love the signing, but not the contract. Dupuis should have gotten term or NMC, not both. Really shouldn't have gotten a NMC offered at 34.

-Kunitz gets an extension, and a no-movement clause.

-To me, the top 2 lines were not an issue at all going into UFA period once Dupuis signed. Frankly, I thought the bottom 6 needed a major upgrade before adding defense. With Cooke and Adams UFA, and TK sent to San Jose, it was the perfect opportunity to rebuild those lines.

-I've heard Tanner Glass already being thrown around as a replacement for Cooke. Seems like a mistake to me, especially after the disappointing season he had last year. He is also without a doubt a definite downgrade in offensive skill over Matt Cooke. I would rather see Glass stay on the 4th line, and have the Pens bring in someone like a Ryan Jones, Eric Nystrom (already signed w/NSH), or have them work with Dustin Jeffrey more on PK and defense. Jeffrey has never really gotten a good shot to prove himself. In 90 games, he's got 27 points. Not earth shattering, but 3 times more than what Tangradi has in just about as many games.

-I don't think the Adams signing is horrible (he didn't get an NMC, so that is a plus), but I think the Pens could have upgraded the position more. Adams is an excellent PK, no doubt, but you'd like to have a 4th line center who can be a stud on faceoffs too...and Adams isn't. Again, there were several options that looked better than Adams for around the same price or less.

-I like bringing in Scuderi, but not for the term, not with a NMC, and really not for the amount. Yeah, he took less than he earned last contract, and less than he would have gotten elsewhere. Why do we continue to draft defensemen if we can't develop them to the point of being NHL ready?

-Bennett appears to be safe, probably Despres too....but we have yet another year of Dumoulin, Maata, Harrington, and co not making the team. Bortuzzo would seem to be getting another year of riding the bench. We already saw Strait, Lovejoy, and Morrow get shipped out....Strait and Lovejoy both rather quickly getting signed to contract extensions. Of all these "stud" defensemen we have drafted or acquired, not one has stepped in early. They do realize that if they actually worked with them, worked them into the lineup, they could get some cap relief that way, right? I'd like to see Dustin Jeffrey get more of a chance, and maybe he will. At the same time, the forward cupboard in WBS continues to be rather bare, so I hope all of our players are ironmen this season.

If you look at the roster, HALF of the Penguins roster has some form of a no-movement clause:
-Forwards: Crosby, Malkin, Dupuis, Neal, Kunitz
-Defense: Orpik, Martin, Letang, Scuderi
-Goalie: Fleury, Vokoun

Granted, they are not all out no trade clauses, but still when a player can name teams, they aren't going to be naming the Florida, Winnipeg, Colorado types. It severely limits their ability to get the return they may want. Shero has not been a fan the no-trade/no-movement clause, but, guess what.....the Penguins have more players with NTC/NMC than ANYONE ELSE in the league. Better hope the Pens stubborness with losing the way they did was right, because we are going to have the current team for awhile or be moving them out for less than market value.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Froggy on Fri Jul 05, 2013 8:59 pm

The whole "bylsma hates rookies" is maybe the absolute dumbest criticism I've read on this board, and for those of you that are new, that is saying a lot
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Scott on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:02 pm

DelPen wrote:It would cost more to replace them and these are also the guys you end up trading high picks and prospects for anyways.

Adams is also cheaper than some guys on entry level deals with high 2-way NHL amounts. Niskanen just needs I be moved for a 3rd line RW and we are set.


Explain this thinking please. How would it cost more to replace them, (outside of Dupuis) to get equal if not better return. Sid is entering into his prime. It's quite probable he could make any line mate at this point in his career have elite type numbers. I think you are over valuing Kunitz greatly here and Dupuis to some degree and not giving enough credit to Crosby. Dupuis being more of an exception because of his speed.
Hey, I loved how Kunitz played the game. Can he still have an impact the way he has remains to be seen.

Scuderi. Here is another I like, and will give us atleast one productive year but after that all bets are off.

Adams..ok. 700 k is fine for what he does. He doesn't hurt you and you need someone to fill those minutes.

Having said all that Father time is undefeated in the NHL and we are now adding that as an opponent with these signings.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:18 pm

Froggy wrote:The whole "bylsma hates rookies" is maybe the absolute dumbest criticism I've read on this board, and for those of you that are new, that is saying a lot


The only time the words "hate" and "rookies" crops up here is your post, just FYI (and now mine)

As a matter of fact, most people who say "Bylsma hates rookies" are the people who go to great lengths to defend Disco. I'd say the comments in here pretty reasonably observe that none of our great D prospects are even given a chance to contribute (rightly or wrongly). Despres was just pushed down the depth chart by signing Scuds. We'll see how much DB uses him instead of the rock, Engelland, and how much effort he makes to let him grow. But I don't think anyone has said anything unreasonable about the young players, unless my skimming missed something. EDIT: Rissling is the only ridiculous comment that matches yours.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby Gaucho on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:20 pm

Froggy wrote:The whole "bylsma hates rookies" is maybe the absolute dumbest criticism I've read on this board, and for those of you that are new, that is saying a lot


Yes.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:20 pm

WTF are you doing GMRS???

You have no idea how to be a GM. What have you ever done that would make us think OU have a freak'n clue???

Spoiler:
oh, yeah, there is all that...
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:24 pm

Gaucho wrote:
Froggy wrote:The whole "bylsma hates rookies" is maybe the absolute dumbest criticism I've read on this board, and for those of you that are new, that is saying a lot


Yes.


Made up argument so the people who love Disco can feel like the criticisms of DB are irrational. If you post anything about not developing players, suddenly your opinion is that Bylsma hates rookies. There's a huge different between capacity to do something and desire to. Most people comment on his capacity to do so, regardless of his feelings towards said players. I guess if you want to address the hand full of lunatics who can't really talk hockey outside of "____ sucks," maybe you have someone to fight with.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby bhaw on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:35 pm

On topic... I don't mind any of the contracts by themselves. I just look at the team as a whole and it's almost exactly like last year and the year before. Good for stability, but with the same coach and same players, what's going to change the outcome of their season? Since the Cup, the Pens have been the Washington Capitals of the last half dozen years (except last year's Caps). In the regular season, the Pens go on huge stretches of wins and phenomenal play. Then as soon as they hit a legit opponent in the playoffs, they become the world's easiest Rubrics Cube to solve.

If the intention was to keep Disco around, I would have hoped they made some kind of personnel change. If Shero and company don't believe that the coach is the issue (by way of extending him) then it has to be the players no executing his system that is causing the laughable playoff performances is MTL, PHI, and BOS (since we have to ignore TB). Obviously you're not trading Sid or Malkin, so I would have figured some kind of change was due elsewhere. As of now, that's not the case, so I'm confused: either they think that the complete team breakdowns (2 historical in nature) are purely coincidence/bad luck or they are content with the last 4 seasons.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shafnutz05 on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:37 pm

That's a perfectly reasonable argument bhaw, and why it drives me insane when it's dismissed as "OMG DISGRUNTLED PENS FANS". There is really zero change going into next season.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby shmenguin on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:39 pm

Our bottom 6 looks like its going to be the worst it's been since 05. I guess I shouldn't doubt shero's ability to make moves, but as it stands, you can't go far in the playoffs with what we have now.
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Re: The Pens direction so far

Postby columbia on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:40 pm

There's no reason to believe that it will change the following year; the cap will go up and so will Letang's salary (at an even faster rate).

I would haven liked to have seen a semi-reboot. Oh well.
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