He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby topshelf on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:03 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Well then I stand corrected. $5 million makes you an idiot but 3 contracts for 34-35 year olds for 4 more years each close to $4 million makes you a legend.

Also, to a post above why do people get so offended when the Pens are referred to as old? when they were the oldest team in the playoffs and 4 of 5 guys signed this summer are 34 or older?

I get that the core is young but a part of our problem is depth and speed and the ability to come in waves at the other team. Age has something to do with that, not to mention everyone's fear of these recent contracts/players age and ability in a few years.

In 3 years the core will be 30 and we will be surrounding them with a handful of 38 year olds. It's a valid concern.



Claiming average age is misleading:

- There is a 3.5 year difference between the oldest and the youngest team in the league going into next season.
- Last year we were .05 years old than the Bruins. Are you saying that's why we lost? Boston is less than a year older than Chicago. Are you saying that's why they lost? If we worried about average age, Toronto, Los Angeles, and Ottawa should have had better playoff runs, as they are all younger than the teams that defeated them.

Source: http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2014

In regards to the guys we signed, odds are they don't stay here if they are offered shorter contracts. Part of taking a cut meant that they get length on the deals.

So, let's just say that Shero lets them walk. Who do we replace them with that both fits in our budget AND keeps us competitive? Keep in mind that Kunitz and Dupuis combined for 42 goals, 48 assists, and 90 points in a 48 game season.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby pugilist13 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:13 pm

topshelf wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Well then I stand corrected. $5 million makes you an idiot but 3 contracts for 34-35 year olds for 4 more years each close to $4 million makes you a legend.

Also, to a post above why do people get so offended when the Pens are referred to as old? when they were the oldest team in the playoffs and 4 of 5 guys signed this summer are 34 or older?

I get that the core is young but a part of our problem is depth and speed and the ability to come in waves at the other team. Age has something to do with that, not to mention everyone's fear of these recent contracts/players age and ability in a few years.

In 3 years the core will be 30 and we will be surrounding them with a handful of 38 year olds. It's a valid concern.



Claiming average age is misleading:

- There is a 3.5 year difference between the oldest and the youngest team in the league going into next season.
- Last year we were .05 years old than the Bruins. Are you saying that's why we lost? Boston is less than a year older than Chicago. Are you saying that's why they lost? If we worried about average age, Toronto, Los Angeles, and Ottawa should have had better playoff runs, as they are all younger than the teams that defeated them.

Source: http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2014

In regards to the guys we signed, odds are they don't stay here if they are offered shorter contracts. Part of taking a cut meant that they get length on the deals.

So, let's just say that Shero lets them walk. Who do we replace them with that both fits in our budget AND keeps us competitive? Keep in mind that Kunitz and Dupuis combined for 42 goals, 48 assists, and 90 points in a 48 game season.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:43 pm

We lost TK and Cooke from start of the season. Add losing Iginla, Morrow, and Murray at the end of the season.
We've added Scuderi and Harry Zolnierczyk this summer. So, our defense got better, but we still never replaced Cooke/TK. The team did not improve itself over the summer, which is concerning. There was lots of opportunity to upgrade the 3rd/4th lines at minimal cost. Losing TK and Cooke loses about 30-35 goals a year.

So, next year, if the same thing were to happen again in the playoffs....whether you want to call it choking, failing to make adjustments, failing to score, figuring out our system, etc. If the Pens lose in a similar manner, what then? It will be hard to change the team much or have room to change the team with Crosby, Malkin, Dupuis, Neal, Kunitz, Letang, Orpik, Martin, Scuderi, Fleury, and Vokoun all with NMCs.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby topshelf on Sun Jul 07, 2013 1:48 pm

FLPensFan wrote:We lost TK and Cooke from start of the season. Add losing Iginla, Morrow, and Murray at the end of the season.
We've added Scuderi and Harry Zolnierczyk this summer. So, our defense got better, but we still never replaced Cooke/TK. The team did not improve itself over the summer, which is concerning. There was lots of opportunity to upgrade the 3rd/4th lines at minimal cost. Losing TK and Cooke loses about 30-35 goals a year.

So, next year, if the same thing were to happen again in the playoffs....whether you want to call it choking, failing to make adjustments, failing to score, figuring out our system, etc. If the Pens lose in a similar manner, what then? It will be hard to change the team much or have room to change the team with Crosby, Malkin, Dupuis, Neal, Kunitz, Letang, Orpik, Martin, Scuderi, Fleury, and Vokoun all with NMCs.


We were one of the best teams in the NHL without Iginla, Morrow, and Murray.

Bennett washes out TK as far as production, IMO.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby taz71 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:23 pm

There is some concern to age in 3 or 4 years but then again if we didn't surround Crosby and Malkin with the players they need to have a chance to win now Shero would be throwing away their prime years on a chance that we can rebuild around another group of younger players.

If we didn't resign Dupuis and Kunitz PENS fans would be wining about Sid not having a legitimate winger. Letangs contract doesn't apply to this thread. Age in terms of defenseman (suderi) is less of a concern than a forward.

Not sure who this will workout but this was Shero's best play.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Jamie on Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:54 pm

Crankshaft wrote:Are you Coach Jimmy McGinty, by chance?


Nope. Just another duck on the pond. :fist:
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:15 pm

topshelf wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:Well then I stand corrected. $5 million makes you an idiot but 3 contracts for 34-35 year olds for 4 more years each close to $4 million makes you a legend.

Also, to a post above why do people get so offended when the Pens are referred to as old? when they were the oldest team in the playoffs and 4 of 5 guys signed this summer are 34 or older?

I get that the core is young but a part of our problem is depth and speed and the ability to come in waves at the other team. Age has something to do with that, not to mention everyone's fear of these recent contracts/players age and ability in a few years.

In 3 years the core will be 30 and we will be surrounding them with a handful of 38 year olds. It's a valid concern.



Claiming average age is misleading:

- There is a 3.5 year difference between the oldest and the youngest team in the league going into next season.
- Last year we were .05 years old than the Bruins. Are you saying that's why we lost? Boston is less than a year older than Chicago. Are you saying that's why they lost? If we worried about average age, Toronto, Los Angeles, and Ottawa should have had better playoff runs, as they are all younger than the teams that defeated them.

Source: http://stats.nhlnumbers.com/teams?year=2014

In regards to the guys we signed, odds are they don't stay here if they are offered shorter contracts. Part of taking a cut meant that they get length on the deals.

So, let's just say that Shero lets them walk. Who do we replace them with that both fits in our budget AND keeps us competitive? Keep in mind that Kunitz and Dupuis combined for 42 goals, 48 assists, and 90 points in a 48 game season.



Sure but my point is more general. All the statistics dont mean that people can't be concerned that we have or had one of the oldest rosters in the league.

My point was its ok to have that concern, was responding to a post where someone was acting like its unreasonable to be concerned about having the oldest roster in the league. It's not, it's a valid discussion point this season and especially moving into the next few years.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:28 pm

There is some concern to age in 3 or 4 years but then again if we didn't surround Crosby and Malkin with the players they need to have a chance to win now Shero would be throwing away their prime years on a chance that we can rebuild around another group of younger players.

If we didn't resign Dupuis and Kunitz PENS fans would be wining about Sid not having a legitimate winger. Letangs contract doesn't apply to this thread. Age in terms of defenseman (suderi) is less of a concern than a forward.

Not sure who this will workout but this was Shero's best play.


Agreed. The Pens may be in trouble in a few years but there is plenty of time for them to make the moves necessary to sustain success in the future. First of all, there's no guarantee that Kunitz and Dupuis will suddenly be horrible at age 38. There are plenty of examples of players continuing to be good players into their late 30's and even early 40's. Second, there is always the possibility and probably the plan to develop the D prospects and to move one for a forward like they did to get Kunitz and Neal. Third, free agency is always a possibility to fill a hole here and there. Finally, they have enough time for the draft to produce forward talent for them. Bennett was drafted in 2010 and three years later is expected to be at worst a regular in the top nine, if not a top six winger from the start this season. If they didn't have so much depth last year, he probably was already a regular last season, just two years after being drafted.

I don't see any reasonable way that the Pens, right now, could have gotten younger and also kept as strong a roster as they currently have. I mean, sure, they could have let Dupuis go and signed Horton but you're not necessarily getting any better production, you'd have even less cap space for this season which equals less depth, and most importantly that's a contract you don't want to have. Probably the biggest reason the Pens are able to go into every season with a strong roster and the possibility to contend for the Cup is that they have so many team-friendly contracts and rarely any bad ones.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby canaan on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:30 pm

Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:I keep hearing these things here about numerous Pens players lately. But hardly anyone mentions the size of the player's HEART. And the Pens have lots of guys with that in their lineup. Time for the LGPers to take that into consideration too.

BEPF

time for some of the cheerleaders to realize that some of the boys with the most heart have since moved on either to other teams or retired.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:34 pm

Just as a tidbit of info: the Red Wings won a Cup in 2007-2008 (when they won the President's Trophy) with an average age of ~ 30.

So while spme, rightfully so, are concerned about team age, it doesn't make or break a team.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby taz71 on Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:39 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
There is some concern to age in 3 or 4 years but then again if we didn't surround Crosby and Malkin with the players they need to have a chance to win now Shero would be throwing away their prime years on a chance that we can rebuild around another group of younger players.

If we didn't resign Dupuis and Kunitz PENS fans would be wining about Sid not having a legitimate winger. Letangs contract doesn't apply to this thread. Age in terms of defenseman (suderi) is less of a concern than a forward.

Not sure who this will workout but this was Shero's best play.


Agreed. The Pens may be in trouble in a few years but there is plenty of time for them to make the moves necessary to sustain success in the future. First of all, there's no guarantee that Kunitz and Dupuis will suddenly be horrible at age 38. There are plenty of examples of players continuing to be good players into their late 30's and even early 40's. Second, there is always the possibility and probably the plan to develop the D prospects and to move one for a forward like they did to get Kunitz and Neal. Third, free agency is always a possibility to fill a hole here and there. Finally, they have enough time for the draft to produce forward talent for them. Bennett was drafted in 2010 and three years later is expected to be at worst a regular in the top nine, if not a top six winger from the start this season. If they didn't have so much depth last year, he probably was already a regular last season, just two years after being drafted.

I don't see any reasonable way that the Pens, right now, could have gotten younger and also kept as strong a roster as they currently have. I mean, sure, they could have let Dupuis go and signed Horton but you're not necessarily getting any better production, you'd have even less cap space for this season which equals less depth, and most importantly that's a contract you don't want to have. Probably the biggest reason the Pens are able to go into every season with a strong roster and the possibility to contend for the Cup is that they have so many team-friendly contracts and rarely any bad ones.


I agree 100% this was the only way to have a competitive team for the next 3-4 years. Bennett couldn't have worked out any better I would say we got lucky on that one.

Next trade deadline will tell the story if we continue to trade prospects/picks for a relatively better shot at the cup we may force ourselves into a rebuilding period 5 years from now on. I don't necessarily want to be sellers but I don't want to continue to lose shots at finding another Bennett. What do you think?
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:23 am

Bennett is the only forward Shero has drafted since Staal that was expected to contribute to the top 6 at the NHL level, unless you want to count Esposito, whose stock was in free fall when they drafted him.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby BurghersAndDogsSports on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:23 am

MRandall25 wrote:Just as a tidbit of info: the Red Wings won a Cup in 2007-2008 (when they won the President's Trophy) with an average age of ~ 30.

So while spme, rightfully so, are concerned about team age, it doesn't make or break a team.


I dont think anyone disagrees that it can be done, I have only see people mention that the age of our roster is a concern.
A slight concern this year but more of one in a few years.

Also, if we keep HCDB we run a high tempo offense probably not suited for a core all 29/30 and a handful of 38 year old's
or the oldest roster in the playoffs.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:09 am

Rocco wrote:The Pens were first in the East in the regular season despite losing key players for long stretches. They won a number of games against desperate opponents even without Crosby and Malkin. Doesn't that take heart? Is there regular season heart and playoff season heart? Did they use too much heart in the regular season and didn't have enough heart left in the tank? Or maybe, just maybe, the "they lacked heart" statement is a load of crap?


The ultimate answer is replacing Bylsma with someone capable of coaching this squad, extracting and focusing their talents, and coming up with a strategy that plays to their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

So far, that hasn't been Bylsma. And he's had his shot, as far as I'm concerned. Solve the coaching problem and the rest of this is academic.

What this team really needs is the late, lamented Badger Bob. He would won 2 more cups by now.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:49 am

IntangibleBeer wrote:
Rocco wrote:The Pens were first in the East in the regular season despite losing key players for long stretches. They won a number of games against desperate opponents even without Crosby and Malkin. Doesn't that take heart? Is there regular season heart and playoff season heart? Did they use too much heart in the regular season and didn't have enough heart left in the tank? Or maybe, just maybe, the "they lacked heart" statement is a load of crap?


The ultimate answer is replacing Bylsma with someone capable of coaching this squad, extracting and focusing their talents, and coming up with a strategy that plays to their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

So far, that hasn't been Bylsma. And he's had his shot, as far as I'm concerned. Solve the coaching problem and the rest of this is academic.

What this team really needs is the late, lamented Badger Bob. He would won 2 more cups by now.


Bylsma certainly shoulders some of the blame, but stating that replacing him is the key to fixing the problem is a cop out. People are just making him the scape goat. There are a lot of factors to blame in the loss against Boston. The players shoulder some of that. Everyone bashes Letang on his turnovers but Sid had nearly as many. Also, I believe that we were a stronger team prior to the trade deadline. I think the new additions messed with some good chemistry that we had going on. It is easy to say that in hindsight, and I commend Shero for taking a chance when he could, but I think that contributed to the playoff play.

Putting it 100% on Bylsma is irrational. He deserves some fault, but definitely not all of it.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Pitt87 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:53 am

Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:I keep hearing these things here about numerous Pens players lately. But hardly anyone mentions the size of the player's HEART. And the Pens have lots of guys with that in their lineup. Time for the LGPers to take that into consideration too.

BEPF


An enlarged is a very serious condition for an older gentleman. :pop:
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:56 am

topshelf wrote:
IntangibleBeer wrote:The ultimate answer is replacing Bylsma with someone capable of coaching this squad, extracting and focusing their talents, and coming up with a strategy that plays to their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

So far, that hasn't been Bylsma. And he's had his shot, as far as I'm concerned. Solve the coaching problem and the rest of this is academic.

What this team really needs is the late, lamented Badger Bob. He would won 2 more cups by now.


Bylsma certainly shoulders some of the blame, but stating that replacing him is the key to fixing the problem is a cop out. People are just making him the scape goat. There are a lot of factors to blame in the loss against Boston. The players shoulder some of that. Everyone bashes Letang on his turnovers but Sid had nearly as many. Also, I believe that we were a stronger team prior to the trade deadline. I think the new additions messed with some good chemistry that we had going on. It is easy to say that in hindsight, and I commend Shero for taking a chance when he could, but I think that contributed to the playoff play.

Putting it 100% on Bylsma is irrational. He deserves some fault, but definitely not all of it.


Also, I just want to add that, while we're throwing around blame, we also need to put some of that "blame" on the Bruins for the fact that they played lights out hockey against us. I don't know what possessed them to play so solid against us, but it was something to behold. For whatever reason, they got hot and played mistake-free hockey against us. That was something they couldn't do against Chicago. I think people forget this and/or believe that we lost to a subpar team.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:18 am

My disagreement with the sentiment in this thread is that Shero's big thing has been not giving up term previously. He has clearly done that this year with each of Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi. Now all of these guys have shown themselves to be durable, so i'd rather give up term than AAV, but its the opposite of Shero's previously stated strategy.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby topshelf on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:33 am

Idoit40fans wrote:My disagreement with the sentiment in this thread is that Shero's big thing has been not giving up term previously. He has clearly done that this year with each of Dupuis, Kunitz, Scuderi. Now all of these guys have shown themselves to be durable, so i'd rather give up term than AAV, but its the opposite of Shero's previously stated strategy.


I'd rather see that, too, if we had the cap space. This year is an anomaly because of three factors: a decreasing cap, teams with extra money laying around, AND a weak free agent market. The result of this is the "have nots" overpaying for overvalued players, and the "haves" being forced to make due.

Given what Dupuis could have made on the open market, the only way he takes a pay cut is for more term. There is no other way around that. Dupuis would have been a $5 mi. man on the open market. If you take that fact and couple it with the fact that there is no one we could replace Dupuis' production and work ethic with for the price that Dupuis settled for, there is no other option but to offer him the deal he received. The only other routes Shero could take is to let him leave and make the team less competitive than it currently is, OR offer him his market value, which we don't have the cap space to do.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:37 am

Given the Clarkson, Horton, Clowe deals, i'm wondering if Dupuis could have got even more than that. Of course those guys offer something significantly different than Dupuis does, but I think he's better, and more likely to keep contributing.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Pavel Bure on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:48 am

This team will get much younger with the infusion of Harrington, Maata, Doulomin(sp?) etc. in the back end in the next two years. Only Letang, Martin, and now Scuds are signed beyond this year on the back end.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby pcm on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:58 am

I'm fine with Dupuis' salary and term. I'd also have been fine with letting him walk, as I think we have 2 top 6 RW's on this team already. Dupuis will be a luxury on the 3rd line behind Neal and Bennett in a couple years, but I think he brings something to this team (like the ability to play anywhere) even as his physical skills might diminish.

Kunitz on the other hand, I see no need to re-sign a year in advance. He's already showing signs of slowing down. Why not wait a year? See what his game looks like. Why re-sign him after a career year? Shero might have been able to get him at 2 years instead of 4. Or another opportunity might have presented itself to improve in that area, getting a guy who maybe doesn't leave Sid all alone in the playoffs each year.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Rocco on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:16 am

IntangibleBeer wrote:
Rocco wrote:The Pens were first in the East in the regular season despite losing key players for long stretches. They won a number of games against desperate opponents even without Crosby and Malkin. Doesn't that take heart? Is there regular season heart and playoff season heart? Did they use too much heart in the regular season and didn't have enough heart left in the tank? Or maybe, just maybe, the "they lacked heart" statement is a load of crap?


The ultimate answer is replacing Bylsma with someone capable of coaching this squad, extracting and focusing their talents, and coming up with a strategy that plays to their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses.

So far, that hasn't been Bylsma. And he's had his shot, as far as I'm concerned. Solve the coaching problem and the rest of this is academic.

What this team really needs is the late, lamented Badger Bob. He would won 2 more cups by now.


He's the benevolent dictator for life. Shero's made that clear. At this point it is better to hope the Pens can build a team that papers over their coach's shortcomings. I thought the 2013 Pens were that team, only to be mistaken.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby NeddieVedder on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:56 am

FLPensFan wrote:We lost TK and Cooke from start of the season. Add losing Iginla, Morrow, and Murray at the end of the season.
We've added Scuderi and Harry Zolnierczyk this summer. So, our defense got better, but we still never replaced Cooke/TK. The team did not improve itself over the summer, which is concerning.


We were thought to be worse going into last year replacing Staal with Sutter, Sullivan with Tangradi, and Michalek with a conglomerate. We actually ended up being better, well before the trade extravaganza. I'd expect another really successful regular season with basically the same roster and presumably more and better Bennett. The playoffs (where they'll have the flexibility to add a deadline defenseman and/or bottom 6 guy if they desire) will tell the story again about whether this is a "learn from your mistakes" climb back to the top or just an inherently flawed group due to coach/core/roster composition/pet theories.
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Re: He's old. He's slow. His contract is too long.

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:59 am

The Pens got better relative to the rest of the league because Crosby played most of the season. It wasn't because of changes the front office made.
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