Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:36 am

PensFanInDC wrote:Its interesting that some people aren't able to distinct between doing what is 'right' and doing what is 'legal'. What GZ did (following Martin) was, in my opinion, not right. It was, however, perfectly legal. Trials work in legality, not morality. What's more is that I see a lot of people wanting a conviction based on said morality but are some of the first to chime in when a politician wants to legislate morality.


I don't believe your making an apt comparison here.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MWB on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:38 am

count2infinity wrote:But that isn't illegal MWB, it doesn't make him guilty of murder. Was the killing of TM murder? Possibly, but the state has not done enough to prove that. Based on the testimony and evidence presented in this case, there's little doubt in my mind that he will get a not guilty verdict. Or at least I would vote not guilty. He very well may have been the aggressor. He very well may have thrown the first punch. He very well may have pinned TM to the ground and shot him in cold blood. But that's not what has been presented in this case. The numerous witnesses and accounts of the happenings that night do not indicate murder. I'm not even sure the evidence is enough for manslaughter. Even though I do believe he is guilty of manslaughter, I don't think the state has proved that.


I agree completely. I wasn't posting that to say that I think he should be found guilty because he got out of the car. I just think he made a bad decision to get out of the car.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:42 am

Troy Loney wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:Its interesting that some people aren't able to distinct between doing what is 'right' and doing what is 'legal'. What GZ did (following Martin) was, in my opinion, not right. It was, however, perfectly legal. Trials work in legality, not morality. What's more is that I see a lot of people wanting a conviction based on said morality but are some of the first to chime in when a politician wants to legislate morality.


I don't believe your making an apt comparison here.


The comparison was an aside and I believe it certainly is apt. There are people I am seeing and hearing that want a man convicted based on their morals and NOT the law. Yet when a politician wants to use his/her morals in legislating law it becomes a problem for them. The reason it is apt is when morality is put forth in legislation the opponents say that personal morality has no place in law, yet, in this case, they are using their own morality to place guilt on the defendant.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:44 am

I think your confusing logic with morals. Unless your citing some opinions that aren't being expressed on this board.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:47 am

Troy Loney wrote:I think your confusing logic with morals. Unless your citing some opinions that aren't being expressed on this board.


From what I understand what is "right" and what is "wrong" was being discussed in part. It was "wrong" for GZ to get out of the car and follow Martin. It would have been "right" for him to stay in the car and wait for the police. His "wrong" decision lead to Martin's death and therefore he is guilty of some crime. That's what I thought was being talked about at least in some part.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:49 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:I think your confusing logic with morals. Unless your citing some opinions that aren't being expressed on this board.


From what I understand what is "right" and what is "wrong" was being discussed in part. It was "wrong" for GZ to get out of the car and follow Martin. It would have been "right" for him to stay in the car and wait for the police. His "wrong" decision lead to Martin's death and therefore he is guilty of some crime. That's what I thought was being talked about at least in some part.


Ok. but this right/wrong discussion has very little connection with the idea of legislating morality.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:56 am

<sigh>

There is a correlation between being fine with using one's morals in the decision in a court of law and being outraged when they are used to make a law.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:59 am

I will concede, however, that they are not equal, but they are closer, in my mind, than they are in yours apparently.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:05 am

You're comparing judging the actions of others to prescribing the actions of others?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:08 am

columbia wrote:You're comparing judging the actions of others to prescribing the actions of others?


Grrrr,,,

No. I am pointing out that it's hypocritical to be okay with convicting a person of a crime solely based on one's morals and not be okay with someone legislating based on their morals. It's okay to impose YOUR morals on one person at a time but not everyone at the same time?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:08 am

huh?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:13 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
columbia wrote:You're comparing judging the actions of others to prescribing the actions of others?


Grrrr,,,

No. I am pointing out that it's hypocritical to be okay with convicting a person of a crime solely based on one's morals and not be okay with someone legislating based on their morals. It's okay to impose YOUR morals on one person at a time but not everyone at the same time?


I really don't see an equivalency between "it's wrong to kill another person" and "you shouldn't be treated as an equal member of society, because you happen to like other dudes."
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:17 am

columbia wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
columbia wrote:You're comparing judging the actions of others to prescribing the actions of others?


Grrrr,,,

No. I am pointing out that it's hypocritical to be okay with convicting a person of a crime solely based on one's morals and not be okay with someone legislating based on their morals. It's okay to impose YOUR morals on one person at a time but not everyone at the same time?


I really don't see an equivalency between "it's wrong to kill another person" and "you shouldn't be treated as an equal member of society, because you happen to like other dudes."


So it's case by case basis then? We can use our morals in a court of law when we feel like it but never in legislation? I don't think, in our society, they should be used in EITHER place. Law is law.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:18 am

Assuming both positions run contrary to the law, at a high level, aren't they both personal (moral?) judgments that are contrary to the law and/or not embraced by the law?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:20 am

Is someone saying that GZ should be convicted, simply because TM died?
( I suppose there might be some.)

I assume the reasoning is that he acted in ways that led to an otherwise preventable death.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:20 am

But wait, is anyone actually saying that GZ should be convicted of "some crime" even if the evidence fails to sufficiently establish that he engaged in such crime?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Troy Loney on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:20 am

Morality can have an exceptionally broad definition. I'm sorry, but i feel like you're trying to make a very self serving argument.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kraftster on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:21 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
columbia wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:
columbia wrote:You're comparing judging the actions of others to prescribing the actions of others?


Grrrr,,,

No. I am pointing out that it's hypocritical to be okay with convicting a person of a crime solely based on one's morals and not be okay with someone legislating based on their morals. It's okay to impose YOUR morals on one person at a time but not everyone at the same time?


I really don't see an equivalency between "it's wrong to kill another person" and "you shouldn't be treated as an equal member of society, because you happen to like other dudes."


So it's case by case basis then? We can use our morals in a court of law when we feel like it but never in legislation? I don't think, in our society, they should be used in EITHER place. Law is law.


From what source should new laws be derived?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:22 am

Aren't laws just a set of moral judgments that a society deems as being right or wrong?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:23 am

I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to. If one of my neighbors saw someone looking into one of my cars and going car to car I would want them to keep an eye on them and watch where they go until police get there.

Of course I am not advocating any physical altercation or even confronting anyone, just be a good witness for the police when they arrive.

With the injuries that Zimmerman had, I don't doubt for a second he was in fear for his life when he fired that single shot. What led up to that is only speculation and we will never know for sure who is telling the truth. I will say the prosecution didn't even come close to proving anything beyond a reasonable doubt. They know this too, which is why they are throwing stones at the end of the trial like the child abuse thing and trying to get manslaughter charges when they spent the entire trial without mentioning it.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Kaizer on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:25 am

theres a big difference between thinking someone might be guilty of a crime because he killed someone and i think its wrong, and someone making it illegal to bang dudes because it might make god mad and send me to hell.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PensFanInDC on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:25 am

ffemtreed wrote:I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to.


Wut?
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby ffemtreed on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:33 am

PensFanInDC wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:I don't understand why its wrong to keep a close eye on someone who doesn't look like they belong in your neighborhood and check out what they are up to.


Wut?



Its called being a productive part of your community. Something that is lacking more and more everyday.
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby rasbatch on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:35 am

Was there any evidence presented that TM is the one that escalated this from a verbal to a physical confrontation?
I don't mean GZ statements or injuries or TM was on top. The one witness that supposedly saw the whole thing to
my knowledge never testified "I saw TM punch GZ".
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Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:35 am

If I see something suspicious, then sure... I'll keep an eye out. I think what a lot of people have an issue with is the fact that he chased after TM after he ran. That's something that I likely would not have done.
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