Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Forum for posts that are not hockey-related.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:24 pm

The shirt should be white.
:pop:
Hockeynut!
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,944
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Pen48guins on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:26 pm

Please no riots in Baltimore. Fingers crossed. 4 days of work before 20 days off and this has to happen
Pen48guins
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 9:38 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby viva la ben on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:30 pm

I need to seperate what my friends are saying on facebook from how I feel about them.
viva la ben
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 8,877
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 11:45 am
Location: Location: Location

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby PhantomJB93 on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:36 pm

I follow entirely too many idiots on twitter. I'm almost positive that 90% of these people spewing stuff about racism in the justice system have no knowledge of this case outside of "somebody who wasn't black fired a gun and shot somebody who was black."

Gun violence is never the answer but there was enough evidence suggesting Trayvon Martin was not the "perfectly innocent young boy" the media and word-of-mouth made him out to be for me to not feel strongly about him walking. Zimmerman's story was shady but so was Martin's so I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other.
PhantomJB93
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,442
Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:21 pm
Location: Blacksburg, VA

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:51 pm

Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with tonight's verdict, one thing everyone should agree on is that the "Stand Your Ground" law is horribly flawed. There is too much wiggle room, left far too open for interpretation, and the price is way too high.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,590
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Eismann on Sat Jul 13, 2013 10:56 pm

I shall now demand to be referred to as a Franco-Irish-Russian Caucasian. Anything less is racial oppression, zombos.
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,297
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Somebody's funny nightmare

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:07 pm

topshelf wrote:Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with tonight's verdict, one thing everyone should agree on is that the "Stand Your Ground" law is horribly flawed. There is too much wiggle room, left far too open for interpretation, and the price is way too high.

Yet that's not what this ruling was. The jury saw that Zimmermans case of self defense gave reasonable doubt.

So no, we shouldn't all agree with your opinion.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 33,192
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Firebird on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:42 pm

topshelf wrote:Regardless of whether you agree or disagree with tonight's verdict, one thing everyone should agree on is that the "Stand Your Ground" law is horribly flawed. There is too much wiggle room, left far too open for interpretation, and the price is way too high.

It's been 2 and a half weeks and you didn't know stand your ground has no relevance in this trial???
Firebird
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,753
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:12 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:48 pm

It didn't have any relevance in this case, but Stand Your Ground does potentially give a "mall cop" a sense of protection when entering into an altercation. For example, in the Texas case I linked a few pages back, the guy went to a neighbor's birthday party and start yelling at them about loud music. When they basically told him to f off, he drew his weapon and said, "I'm standing my ground" before eventually shooting and killing someone.
Hockeynut!
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,944
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Grunthy on Sat Jul 13, 2013 11:59 pm

Hockeynut! wrote:It didn't have any relevance in this case, but Stand Your Ground does potentially give a "mall cop" a sense of protection when entering into an altercation. For example, in the Texas case I linked a few pages back, the guy went to a neighbor's birthday party and start yelling at them about loud music. When they basically told him to f off, he drew his weapon and said, "I'm standing my ground" before eventually shooting and killing someone.



Just because some crazy ******* does something doesn't mean a law is bad.
Grunthy
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,763
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby MRandall25 on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:00 am

Didn't take long for people to basically say "Zimmerman got off because he's white and Trayvon was black".

:face:
MRandall25
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,549
Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:11 pm
Location: BOBROVSKY!!!

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:01 am

Grunthy wrote:
Hockeynut! wrote:It didn't have any relevance in this case, but Stand Your Ground does potentially give a "mall cop" a sense of protection when entering into an altercation. For example, in the Texas case I linked a few pages back, the guy went to a neighbor's birthday party and start yelling at them about loud music. When they basically told him to f off, he drew his weapon and said, "I'm standing my ground" before eventually shooting and killing someone.



Just because some crazy ******* does something doesn't mean a law is bad.

Yeah the law is horrible all on its own.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 50,980
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DelPen on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:11 am

Hockeynut! wrote:It didn't have any relevance in this case, but Stand Your Ground does potentially give a "mall cop" a sense of protection when entering into an altercation. For example, in the Texas case I linked a few pages back, the guy went to a neighbor's birthday party and start yelling at them about loud music. When they basically told him to f off, he drew his weapon and said, "I'm standing my ground" before eventually shooting and killing someone.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/texas-man-foun ... d=16563913

And he was convicted of murder because this wasn't SYG. SYG laws only differentiate from basic self defense in the idea of duty to retreat. In SC for example, if you can get out of a situation without increasing your danger, you need to do that before using deadly force. In FL you don't need to. But the element of a reasonable fear of great harm or death still needs to exist.

But in this case, it's basic self defense because you can't retreat when someone is on top of you hitting you.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 33,192
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby Hockeynut! on Sun Jul 14, 2013 12:23 am

DelPen wrote:And he was convicted of murder because this wasn't SYG. SYG laws only differentiate from basic self defense in the idea of duty to retreat. In SC for example, if you can get out of a situation without increasing your danger, you need to do that before using deadly force. In FL you don't need to. But the element of a reasonable fear of great harm or death still needs to exist.


It's hard to find many articles on the FL law that aren't based around the Zimmerman case, but one I found said something like there were 3x as many "self defense" claim after SYG than before (http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... le/1128317). I just feel the law has the very real potential to give some idiot the confidence that he can get involved in an argument and shoot someone, then say, "I was afraid for my life and was standing my ground." Hopefully more innocent lives are saved by law abiding citizens rightfully protecting themselves, but I can see a lot of guys who are already prone to getting involved in fights getting in deeper than normal because they think they can use SYG as an out.
Hockeynut!
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,944
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:55 am

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby America on Sun Jul 14, 2013 4:34 am

1. Zimmerman isn't white, so anyone saying this is white vs black is dumb.

2. Type in "Zimmerman" on Twitter search. Aside from the lack of knowledge of the English language by 99% of the people, the sheer ignorance of the Tweets is astounding and worth looking over.
America
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 652
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2013 2:56 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shafnutz05 on Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:07 am

I still find it hilarious that the media had never referred to "white Hispanics" until this trial. Fan those flames of racial hatred!
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 55,440
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby DropEmJayBird on Sun Jul 14, 2013 7:44 am

Verdict was a no brainer for anyone putting the whole story together. Even though the Jury did not get all available information about the kind of person Trayvon Martin was - they also thankfully did not get all the BS from the media whose sole purpose was to blind the American people to the basic truths of this story.
DropEmJayBird
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,498
Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2008 9:38 pm

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby columbia on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:03 am

I guess one possible outcome is that more people will start carrying handguns for self defense (against hall monitors like GZ).
Vicious circle n'at.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,356
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:16 am

DelPen wrote:And he was convicted of murder because this wasn't SYG. SYG laws only differentiate from basic self defense in the idea of duty to retreat. In SC for example, if you can get out of a situation without increasing your danger, you need to do that before using deadly force. In FL you don't need to. But the element of a reasonable fear of great harm or death still needs to exist.

But in this case, it's basic self defense because you can't retreat when someone is on top of you hitting you.



My problem with it here in Florida, DelPen, is "reasonable fear" is left far too open for interpretation. My original post isn't a cry to get rid of "Stand Your Ground", as I think the premise of the law is sound, but what stops a guy from killing someone out of rage and then stating that he feared his life? It's way to vague when you consider a life can be lost because of one's interpretation of feelings.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,590
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:19 am

oh god facebook... I swear some of the people I see posting haven't read a single article or watched a single snippet from the trial, except for what they saw immediately after TM's death. You can be outraged by this verdict if you want, but the jurors decided the case based on the evidence and testimony given in court and that's the way our legal system works.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,245
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: Can't wait for playoffs to up the dumb level ten fold in this place.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby count2infinity on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:23 am

topshelf wrote:
DelPen wrote:And he was convicted of murder because this wasn't SYG. SYG laws only differentiate from basic self defense in the idea of duty to retreat. In SC for example, if you can get out of a situation without increasing your danger, you need to do that before using deadly force. In FL you don't need to. But the element of a reasonable fear of great harm or death still needs to exist.

But in this case, it's basic self defense because you can't retreat when someone is on top of you hitting you.



My problem with it here in Florida, DelPen, is "reasonable fear" is left far too open for interpretation. My original post isn't a cry to get rid of "Stand Your Ground", as I think the premise of the law is sound, but what stops a guy from killing someone out of rage and then stating that he feared his life? It's way to vague when you consider a life can be lost because of one's interpretation of feelings.


I had posted about that a few pages back. What is reasonable fear? One punch? Two punches? Three? Does a punch even need to be thrown? Do you have to be bleeding? If so how much blood? Do you have to be almost unconscious to claim self defense? There is ZERO information as far as what happened between the 911 phone call from Zimmerman and gun shot other than there was a scuffle and multiple witnesses corroborate that TM was on top. The apparently was enough for the jury to decide there was a reasonable fear in GZ mind to shot TM.
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,245
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: Can't wait for playoffs to up the dumb level ten fold in this place.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:36 am

count2infinity wrote:oh god facebook... I swear some of the people I see posting haven't read a single article or watched a single snippet from the trial, except for what they saw immediately after TM's death. You can be outraged by this verdict if you want, but the jurors decided the case based on the evidence and testimony given in court and that's the way our legal system works.


Yes. Given the way the law is written, and paired with the presentation that the jury witnessed, the "Not Guilty" verdict is no surprise. I don't think there was anything else they could choose, given the situation.

count2infinity wrote:I had posted about that a few pages back. What is reasonable fear? One punch? Two punches? Three? Does a punch even need to be thrown? Do you have to be bleeding? If so how much blood? Do you have to be almost unconscious to claim self defense? There is ZERO information as far as what happened between the 911 phone call from Zimmerman and gun shot other than there was a scuffle and multiple witnesses corroborate that TM was on top. The apparently was enough for the jury to decide there was a reasonable fear in GZ mind to shot TM.


Agreed. There is zero information as to what took place from the moment GZ hung up the phone until Trayvon was dead. There is no indication on who started the scuffle, only who finished it. If Zimmerman started the scuffle with Martin, couldn't it be stated that Martin was standing his ground with his fists? Absolutely. But we'll never know.

The law states that, once you fear for your life, taking the life of another person is justified, and as long as it is written this way, there will be many more cases that end up like this. When confrontation happens, there are too many other emotions that are going on that can cloud one's ability to think reasonably and decipher whether or not they are in true danger (anger, rage, confusion, etc.), and to allow one to take another's life while in that state of disorientation based solely on that product of that state of disorientation is unjust.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,590
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby malkinshair on Sun Jul 14, 2013 8:40 am

MRandall25 wrote:Didn't take long for people to basically say "Zimmerman got off because he's white and Trayvon was black".

:face:


You can thank the media (and ignorance of those listening to it) for that. I loved hearing the defense team's press conference last night basically blaming the media for the 'racial injustice' mantra being forced into this case. Mark O'Mara (lead defense attorney) also said bluntly that, in his opinion, had GZ been black no charges would've been filed. O'Mara and West's disdain for the media in general was intense and sincere.

It makes me sick that there are undoubtedly members of the media right now crossing their fingers for a riot / flash mob response to this verdict. For all of the bad jokes and dislike for attorneys in this country, we all know and expect them to be crafters of stories. It's a shame that our media has become the same.
malkinshair
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,215
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2007 11:27 pm
Location: about 455 yards away...with a 2 iron, I think.

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby topshelf on Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:07 am

malkinshair wrote:Mark O'Mara (lead defense attorney) also said bluntly that, in his opinion, had GZ been black no charges would've been filed.


In my opinion, O'Mara's statement only prolongs and instigates the racial tension that surrounds this case. Charges should have been filed because someone died and the story of how it happened was beyond shady. If you take race out of the case, it's still a shady situation. In his position, O'Mara should attempt to diffuse the racial outcry rather than propagate it.

But, ultimately, I blame no one but the media for the racial attachment to this case. In any situation like this, there will always be those "fringe" members of society who cite racism and cause a scene. They were there in both the black an white communities. So, what does the local media do? They take their cameras and trucks into the worst neighborhoods in Orlando and Sanford and allow individuals who are acting on both their feelings for the case AND the fact that they have an opportunity to be on tv to make a fool of themselves. Then the media spins the story as if their behavior and feelings are the norm here in Central Florida. It is sickening.
topshelf
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 2,590
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:13 am
Location: Florida

Re: Shooting Reignites Racial Questions

Postby shmenguin on Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:26 am

Our wonderful president certainly didn't help things
shmenguin
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,213
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:34 pm

PreviousNext

Return to NHR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

e-mail