Fire DB

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Fire DB

Postby Rylan on Sun Nov 17, 2013 4:20 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:So can we all agree that DB's days are numbered?

Does anyone really see him as the kind of guy that can win multiple 'Cups even with some of the best talent in the league?
The question is: "Does Ray Shero have a good succession plan?" or is Jaques Martin our coach of the future?


Theoretically, the day a coach is hired starts counting days until he is relieved of duties. So yep, his days are numbered.
Rylan
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,014
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:07 am
Location: Dead and Without Love

Re: Fire DB

Postby penmyst on Sun Nov 17, 2013 5:48 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:So can we all agree that DB's days are numbered?

Does anyone really see him as the kind of guy that can win multiple 'Cups even with some of the best talent in the league?
The question is: "Does Ray Shero have a good succession plan?" or is Jaques Martin our coach of the future?


Did anyone really see him coming back after the debacle in Philly 2 years ago?

Did anyone really see him coming back after the historically inept team performance against Boston last year?

And yet here we are.

Rylan wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:So can we all agree that DB's days are numbered?

Does anyone really see him as the kind of guy that can win multiple 'Cups even with some of the best talent in the league?
The question is: "Does Ray Shero have a good succession plan?" or is Jaques Martin our coach of the future?


Theoretically, the day a coach is hired starts counting days until he is relieved of duties. So yep, his days are numbered.


Yep. This is similar to the statement "We are all dying. Been dying since the day we were born." It's true.
penmyst
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,369
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:30 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:41 pm

Great58 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
Great58 wrote:
pcm wrote:Sunday morning reality check: the Penguins are not an elite team. http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/group/1

Do you imagine the Let's Go Ducks page is trying to blow up their team in the face of three straight losses... in November?

They were expected to miss the playoffs last year and ended up being one of the best teams in hockey, so i imagine theyre pretty happy.

I don't think the chronic underachieving of their 8+ million dollar men Getzlaf & Perry should be so easily dismissed, nor the fact their coach is a regular season title winning paper tiger. With a PK rated 27th in the NHL, they are benefiting heavily from games in hand. :pop:

See how easy this is? :scared:


What? They were one of the best teams in the league after every team in the league had played 48 games. Thats 0 games in hand.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,228
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Fire DB

Postby M10 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 7:56 pm

The Bylsma apologists will say you can't win the cup every year. They may be on to something. However, it's the fashion in which you go about winning or losing during that pursuit. Currently, we have a coach who has shown he is unwilling to alter his message (amongst other things;system;match ups;etc) to meet the circumstances. No we are not in the room, but what goes on during games is there for everyone to see.

The message is: play this way and we will win. If we lose, you weren't playing our game.

It's arrogance and downright insanity. This is why Jaques Martin was brought in. It's ridiculous that Shero will provide band-aids instead of fixing the problem permanently. That thought process is the same one behind signing Rob Scuderi who is here to babysit Letang after doing a remarkable job changing Doughty's diapers the last 4 years. I don't even know how anyone can defend the guy (Bylsma) at this point, the results have been the same.
M10
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:30 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby pugilist13 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:16 pm

M10 wrote:The Bylsma apologists will say you can't win the cup every year. They may be on to something. However, it's the fashion in which you go about winning or losing during that pursuit. Currently, we have a coach who has shown he is unwilling to alter his message (amongst other things;system;match ups;etc) to meet the circumstances. No we are not in the room, but what goes on during games is there for everyone to see.

The message is: play this way and we will win. If we lose, you weren't playing our game.

It's arrogance and downright insanity. This is why Jaques Martin was brought in. It's ridiculous that Shero will provide band-aids instead of fixing the problem permanently. That thought process is the same one behind signing Rob Scuderi who is here to babysit Letang after doing a remarkable job changing Doughty's diapers the last 4 years. I don't even know how anyone can defend the guy (Bylsma) at this point, the results have been the same.

Agreed, however I think the arrogance begins higher up the chain. From ownership to GM to coach to superstars. As much as I hate Torts, I think he's right when he said it.
pugilist13
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,258
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:51 pm
Location: your back yard

Re: Fire DB

Postby M10 on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:23 pm

Considering a certain guy in ownership ran one of the best coaches (and hockey mind in general) out of town after he led them to a cup and almost a 3rd (we won't go there) ... I don't doubt it. That's not really news though, the players have always "chosen" when they wanted a new coach in this org.
M10
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 151
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:30 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby PghSkins on Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:37 pm

Bylsmagic about to slip to 2nd in the Metro behind you know who.

Meh, not them, the other you know who.

Vomit.
PghSkins
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,609
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 8:36 pm
Location: Beaver

Re: Fire DB

Postby Great58 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:25 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
Great58 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
Great58 wrote:
pcm wrote:Sunday morning reality check: the Penguins are not an elite team. http://espn.go.com/nhl/standings/_/group/1

Do you imagine the Let's Go Ducks page is trying to blow up their team in the face of three straight losses... in November?

They were expected to miss the playoffs last year and ended up being one of the best teams in hockey, so i imagine theyre pretty happy.

I don't think the chronic underachieving of their 8+ million dollar men Getzlaf & Perry should be so easily dismissed, nor the fact their coach is a regular season title winning paper tiger. With a PK rated 27th in the NHL, they are benefiting heavily from games in hand. :pop:

See how easy this is? :scared:


What? They were one of the best teams in the league after every team in the league had played 48 games. Thats 0 games in hand.

The link is your friend. I was referring to this year, as the link referenced, where they had two games in hand over their closest competetor. Now they have one game in hand, and are second in the league. They could easily be in 6th in the league. It's time for Ducks fans to :scared:
Great58
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,625
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:56 pm
Location: On the blue line

Re: Fire DB

Postby shafnutz05 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:56 am

Fire him
shafnutz05
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 56,974
Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:10 pm
Location: Amish Country

Re: Fire DB

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:05 am

M10 wrote:Considering a certain guy in ownership ran one of the best coaches (and hockey mind in general) out of town after he led them to a cup and almost a 3rd (we won't go there) ... I don't doubt it. That's not really news though, the players have always "chosen" when they wanted a new coach in this org.


That's a true statement, unfortunately.
IntangibleBeer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:18 am

The most frustrating things for me are:
  • Superstar talent playing a system that just doesn't work.
  • Poor player selection for games
  • Failure to match lines against the opposition (not using your advantages)
  • Being beaten by much less talented teams with a system that fits their skill sets.
  • Seeing the Pens outcoached by cement-heads like Craig Berube.
  • Making excuses for the problems; the first step to recovery is honesty, brutal and frank. You've got to look in the mirror.
  • I think Fleury has held up his end. The Pens are wasting his efforts and there is a chance he will slip back (mentally) into that loser mind-set when the team doesn't support him.

I agree with several of the previous posters who wrote about how hard it is to watch the Pens play. They only seem to play well against visibly weaker opponents. Stronger teams with better coaching give them fits. I just grit my teeth most of the time. I've even skipped a game (NJ), knowing how it would turn out.

Bylsma is simply out of his depth in the current coaching environment. He needs to be replaced with a veteran hockey coach that can make the in-game strategic changes and exercise the right mix of discipline and chemistry to get this team fired up again. I know HCDB is a nice guy and I feel sorry for him, but it really is time to :scared: . We need to save this season. Crosby, Malking, Letang, Fleury are not getting any younger; they should have had 3 cups by now.
IntangibleBeer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby Jim on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:27 am

IntangibleBeer wrote:Superstar talent playing a system that just doesn't work.
Do you actually believe that there is any coach or any system that the superstar talent you refer to will actually follow?

IntangibleBeer wrote:Being beaten by much less talented teams with a system that fits their skill sets.
I do not believe that DB's system is "skate around wherever you want and do whatever you want." which is what seems to be happening with some of the players.

IntangibleBeer wrote:Seeing the Pens outcoached by cement-heads like Craig Berube.
Actually, it is more like seeing players stick to the system put in place by cement-heads like Craig Berube.

IntangibleBeer wrote:Making excuses for the problems; the first step to recovery is honesty, brutal and frank. You've got to look in the mirror.
This is 100% true, I just believe that it is a handful of the players that need to do this, not the coach.

I can not say that DB is doing a good job, at all, but it is certainly difficult to get a real read on it when a top handful of players seem to have little to no interest in listening.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Fire DB

Postby Crankshaft on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:52 am

Jim wrote:but it is certainly difficult to get a real read on it when a top handful of players seem to have little to no interest in listening.


If this is true, then you need to bring in someone who they will listen to.
Crankshaft
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 6,269
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 12:35 pm

Re: Fire DB

Postby count2infinity on Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:55 am

M10 wrote:Considering a certain guy in ownership ran one of the best coaches (and hockey mind in general) out of town after he led them to a cup and almost a 3rd (we won't go there) ... I don't doubt it. That's not really news though, the players have always "chosen" when they wanted a new coach in this org.


:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:
count2infinity
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 21,729
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 3:03 pm
Location: #isitoctoberyet??? Lololololololol

Re: Fire DB

Postby IntangibleBeer on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:14 am

Jim wrote:
IntangibleBeer wrote:Superstar talent playing a system that just doesn't work.
Do you actually believe that there is any coach or any system that the superstar talent you refer to will actually follow?

IntangibleBeer wrote:Being beaten by much less talented teams with a system that fits their skill sets.
I do not believe that DB's system is "skate around wherever you want and do whatever you want." which is what seems to be happening with some of the players.

IntangibleBeer wrote:Seeing the Pens outcoached by cement-heads like Craig Berube.
Actually, it is more like seeing players stick to the system put in place by cement-heads like Craig Berube.

IntangibleBeer wrote:Making excuses for the problems; the first step to recovery is honesty, brutal and frank. You've got to look in the mirror.
This is 100% true, I just believe that it is a handful of the players that need to do this, not the coach.

I can not say that DB is doing a good job, at all, but it is certainly difficult to get a real read on it when a top handful of players seem to have little to no interest in listening.


1. Yes, I believe the superstars will follow a coach or system they believe in. Primary example: Badger Bob Johnson.
2. I don't think it is either, but 1) it doesn't seem to be sound offensively with the players on the ice; 2) Players maybe skating around because they have lost faith in it.
3. It must be working for the other teams. Maybe Berube has a system that fits his players and that his players believe in.
4. You might have something there, but I don't know.

All your responses point to a situation where HCDB has lost the team or the team leaders. That requires either a change of the team (if you think HCDB is the next Scotty Bowman) or a change of the coach.
IntangibleBeer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 626
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:40 am

The truth is it's not even the issue of a system. IMO it's the issue of accountability. Bylsma does not hold these players accountable for their roles.

The Penguins need two things: Discipline and Killer Instinct.

    How many careless passes do Malkin and Sid make a game?

    How often does everyone pass up shots on the PP?

    How often does Malkin miss his assignment in their own zone?

    Letang constantly makes passes that hold up their entry into the zone.

I'm sorry, I don't care that Sidney Crosby is Sidney Crosby. He made two atrocious blind/careless passes in the NJ game that led to chances for the Devils. Sid should have been benched for a few shifts. Same goes for Malkin and Letang.

Isn't it bizarre that the three best players on the team when it comes to generating chances (Sid, Gino and Letang) all make some of the worst passes and get away with it? It's obviously because when those passes work out they're looked at like phenoms.

You can't make players like Malkin and Sid play systems 100% of the time. They are players that need to be allowed to use their creativity and vision, but you can hold them accountable for their carless play and missed assignments.

Look at Ovechkin. Ovechkin was benched! Honestly, if you look at the rough road AO went through for a short period time in Washington, once he was being held accountable for his play he re-emerged as a juggernaut.

Bylsma needs to grow some Cojones.
Last edited by Hugo Stiglitz on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hugo Stiglitz
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,142
Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:36 am

Re: Fire DB

Postby Jim on Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:59 am

IntangibleBeer wrote:1. Yes, I believe the superstars will follow a coach or system they believe in. Primary example: Badger Bob Johnson.

Unfortunately we will never know how good he really could have been, or if the players (Mario) would have kept listening to him. However, Bowman was a great coach (even better than Johnson) and that did not stop the players from doing their own thing. I do not think that there is a coach today that would compare to either of those two anyway.

IntangibleBeer wrote:2. I don't think it is either, but 1) it doesn't seem to be sound offensively with the players on the ice; 2) Players maybe skating around because they have lost faith in it.

Unfortunately point 2 is a chicken or the egg type thing. Do they not have faith or do they just not care to listen? They aren't too far off from one another and impossible to pinpoint.

IntangibleBeer wrote:3. It must be working for the other teams. Maybe Berube has a system that fits his players and that his players believe in.

The same chicken/egg type thing, just from the other side of the coin. Do they follow the system because they believe in it or do they follow the system because it is their job to follow the system?

IntangibleBeer wrote:4. You might have something there, but I don't know.

The way his mind is, I do not think that there is a coach in the league that would be able to get Malkin (for example) to tow the line and I do not think that there is a system on the planet that Malkin would stick to. Letang seems to be following Malkin's path, as are a few other people.

Fleury... he seems to play noticeably better (eye test, not just stats) when he feels that his job is in danger. When Tugnutt took over the team Fleury came back and exploded. Then he slipped again after he got comfortable again. Vokoun came in last year and took the reigns, so Fleury came in this year and has played lights out. When Fleury is held accountable, when he looks in the mirror... he actually responds. It is time for other players to face the piper.

IntangibleBeer wrote:All your responses point to a situation where HCDB has lost the team or the team leaders. That requires either a change of the team (if you think HCDB is the next Scotty Bowman) or a change of the coach.

I sure as heck do not think that DB is the next Bowman, or even close. I just do not think that a change in coach is going to fix ANYTHING. I feel that changing the coach is just treating the symptoms and NOT treating the actual problem. The issue might seem to go away for a little bit, but since the problem is still there it will return. It would be just making a change to make a change and make it look like you are doing something, but it is not address the situation at all.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,729
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Fire DB

Postby meow on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:01 pm

Lines switched up this morning: Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett, Dupuis-Malkin-Neal, Jokinen-Sutter-Gibbons, Glass-Vitale-Adams pens.pe/17gM5di - 15 minutes ago
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,534
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Fire DB

Postby mikey287 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:07 pm

Gasp!
mikey287
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 17,869
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:40 pm
Location: Philadelphia, PA - @MichaelFarkasHF

Re: Fire DB

Postby KG on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:08 pm

Desperate times.....desperate measures! = )
KG
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,979
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 11:53 am
Location: NY

Re: Fire DB

Postby meow on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:08 pm

Are those...adjustments?
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,534
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Fire DB

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:09 pm

Not in the way that anyone wants them made, but its something.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,228
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Fire DB

Postby meow on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:11 pm

Bylsma can't exactly fire himself.
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,534
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Fire DB

Postby Defence21 on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:15 pm

meow wrote:
Lines switched up this morning: Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett, Dupuis-Malkin-Neal, Jokinen-Sutter-Gibbons, Glass-Vitale-Adams pens.pe/17gM5di - 15 minutes ago

Interesting that Bylsma didn't go with Kunitz on the second line instead of Dupuis. Kunitz played really well with Malkin and Neal a few years back. Maybe it's an attempt to keep a more physical player on the top line given that the second line already has size?
Defence21
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,847
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 11:01 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Fire DB

Postby meow on Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:19 pm

Defence21 wrote:
meow wrote:
Lines switched up this morning: Kunitz-Crosby-Bennett, Dupuis-Malkin-Neal, Jokinen-Sutter-Gibbons, Glass-Vitale-Adams pens.pe/17gM5di - 15 minutes ago

Interesting that Bylsma didn't go with Kunitz on the second line instead of Dupuis. Kunitz played really well with Malkin and Neal a few years back. Maybe it's an attempt to keep a more physical player on the top line given that the second line already has size?

Possibly. Maybe Malkin's line needs the injection of speed Dupuis will bring.
meow
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 7,534
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:02 pm
Location: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Humperdink, longtimefan, mikey287, Old Used Pylon, raewhit and 19 guests


e-mail