2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 17, 2018 4:03 pm

SubtropicalPenguin wrote:I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.

The point of moving Kessel is to not be stuck with him and his 6.8M cap hit when his game starts to tail off. It has zero to do with his performance in the playoffs, and a lot to do with his performance in the regular season. Kessel is not a regular player. Management has had issues with him in Boston and in Toronto. Maybe you think those were overblown, but, some of those issues are starting to creep up in Pittsburgh....starting with Rutherford saying he was injured with various ailments, and Sullivan saying he had no serious injuries that would have affected his game. There's a disconnect there. There seems to be a greater divide between Kessel and Sully, to the point this could be reaching Sully/Cole levels.

I totally get what you are saying....we have a guy that just scored 34 goals and 92 points, why on Earth would you want to move him. I don't think actively trying to trade him is the answer, but, I see nothing wrong with putting his name out there and see if anyone makes a serious offer. But, he also plays a position the Penguins are loaded at in RW. Yes, I would like to see more of Sprong before counting on him as a solid RW contributor, but that's on the Penguins for not getting him more time this season, not Sprong.

The Penguins got their 2 Cups with Kessel, but he isn't a core player for them. He's close, but he's not someone they won't move under any circumstances. We need to be able to move on from players and not think we need to hang onto everyone because they helped us win a Cup. That's not a thing against Kessel. It's just that, this year should have proved that sometimes returning the whole same team from the previous CUp year isn't always the best solution. You need fresh blood. Don't settle on Tommy Kuhnhackl as your 4th liner, when you have the chance to get a guy that can play a similar level of defense and PK ability, but actually provide more production as well. Don't settle on having a lineup filled with multiple smallish guys in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, etc, when you can possibly improve on those players.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Thu May 17, 2018 4:14 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
SubtropicalPenguin wrote:I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.

The point of moving Kessel is to not be stuck with him and his 6.8M cap hit when his game starts to tail off. It has zero to do with his performance in the playoffs, and a lot to do with his performance in the regular season. Kessel is not a regular player. Management has had issues with him in Boston and in Toronto. Maybe you think those were overblown, but, some of those issues are starting to creep up in Pittsburgh....starting with Rutherford saying he was injured with various ailments, and Sullivan saying he had no serious injuries that would have affected his game. There's a disconnect there. There seems to be a greater divide between Kessel and Sully, to the point this could be reaching Sully/Cole levels.

I totally get what you are saying....we have a guy that just scored 34 goals and 92 points, why on Earth would you want to move him. I don't think actively trying to trade him is the answer, but, I see nothing wrong with putting his name out there and see if anyone makes a serious offer. But, he also plays a position the Penguins are loaded at in RW. Yes, I would like to see more of Sprong before counting on him as a solid RW contributor, but that's on the Penguins for not getting him more time this season, not Sprong.

The Penguins got their 2 Cups with Kessel, but he isn't a core player for them. He's close, but he's not someone they won't move under any circumstances. We need to be able to move on from players and not think we need to hang onto everyone because they helped us win a Cup. That's not a thing against Kessel. It's just that, this year should have proved that sometimes returning the whole same team from the previous CUp year isn't always the best solution. You need fresh blood. Don't settle on Tommy Kuhnhackl as your 4th liner, when you have the chance to get a guy that can play a similar level of defense and PK ability, but actually provide more production as well. Don't settle on having a lineup filled with multiple smallish guys in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, etc, when you can possibly improve on those players.


Question, of the next generation of Pens, who do you consider the core? I look at Maatta, Guenztel, Murray (I think Jarry can work his way there if Murray can't get past his injury prone label) as the core for the new group of players. Not to say they're untouchable by any means , but they seem to be trending upwards (minus Murray's injury problems, hopefully he can end that next season) and it would be nice to hold onto them for the foreseeable future.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby SubtropicalPenguin on Thu May 17, 2018 5:12 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
SubtropicalPenguin wrote:I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.

The point of moving Kessel is to not be stuck with him and his 6.8M cap hit when his game starts to tail off. It has zero to do with his performance in the playoffs, and a lot to do with his performance in the regular season. Kessel is not a regular player. Management has had issues with him in Boston and in Toronto. Maybe you think those were overblown, but, some of those issues are starting to creep up in Pittsburgh....starting with Rutherford saying he was injured with various ailments, and Sullivan saying he had no serious injuries that would have affected his game. There's a disconnect there. There seems to be a greater divide between Kessel and Sully, to the point this could be reaching Sully/Cole levels.

I totally get what you are saying....we have a guy that just scored 34 goals and 92 points, why on Earth would you want to move him. I don't think actively trying to trade him is the answer, but, I see nothing wrong with putting his name out there and see if anyone makes a serious offer. But, he also plays a position the Penguins are loaded at in RW. Yes, I would like to see more of Sprong before counting on him as a solid RW contributor, but that's on the Penguins for not getting him more time this season, not Sprong.

The Penguins got their 2 Cups with Kessel, but he isn't a core player for them. He's close, but he's not someone they won't move under any circumstances. We need to be able to move on from players and not think we need to hang onto everyone because they helped us win a Cup. That's not a thing against Kessel. It's just that, this year should have proved that sometimes returning the whole same team from the previous CUp year isn't always the best solution. You need fresh blood. Don't settle on Tommy Kuhnhackl as your 4th liner, when you have the chance to get a guy that can play a similar level of defense and PK ability, but actually provide more production as well. Don't settle on having a lineup filled with multiple smallish guys in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, etc, when you can possibly improve on those players.


I agree that the Pens should keep their options open. If something comes up that would make the Pens a better team, by all means, go for it. I just hope they don't get reactionary and push to move Kessel for non-hockey reasons. I don't see any realistic packages that will come our way that would be better than an elite goal scoring RW at 6.8 million cost-controlled for 4 years. If GMJR makes a hockey move, so be it, but Phil is very good value right now, especially with the cap set to make a sizable jump. It would take one heck of a package to make me excited about shipping Phil. I know people think we have a log-jam at RW, but if we ship Kessel, that position of strength potentially becomes a position of weakness very quickly (especially if Sprong doesn't live up to expectations, and/or ZAR doesn't recover well from having his head damn near taken off by stupid Wilson).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Thu May 17, 2018 6:57 pm

I see that NY Islander nikolai kulemin is a UFA and a natural LW with some skill. I recall how the Pens attempted to sign him last time he was a free agent so he could be reunited with hometown buddy Malkin.
I'm not sure what his injury situation was last season, but he may come cheap on a 1 year - prove it deal - and boost his numbers alongside Malkin.
This also presumes we deal Sheary for a pick or prospect to clear his cap hit. Just a thought.
Now, I'd like to hear yours.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 17, 2018 7:39 pm

dark_forces wrote:I see that NY Islander nikolai kulemin is a UFA and a natural LW with some skill. I recall how the Pens attempted to sign him last time he was a free agent so he could be reunited with hometown buddy Malkin.
I'm not sure what his injury situation was last season, but he may come cheap on a 1 year - prove it deal - and boost his numbers alongside Malkin.
This also presumes we deal Sheary for a pick or prospect to clear his cap hit. Just a thought.
Now, I'd like to hear yours.


He's had 37 Goals total in his last 4 seasons. That's averaging less than 10 Goals a season and he's 31.

It really depends on what they get if they move a Letang or Kessel.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pekkasteele on Fri May 18, 2018 3:51 am

FLPensFan wrote:
SubtropicalPenguin wrote:I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.

The point of moving Kessel is to not be stuck with him and his 6.8M cap hit when his game starts to tail off. It has zero to do with his performance in the playoffs, and a lot to do with his performance in the regular season. Kessel is not a regular player. Management has had issues with him in Boston and in Toronto. Maybe you think those were overblown, but, some of those issues are starting to creep up in Pittsburgh....starting with Rutherford saying he was injured with various ailments, and Sullivan saying he had no serious injuries that would have affected his game. There's a disconnect there. There seems to be a greater divide between Kessel and Sully, to the point this could be reaching Sully/Cole levels.

I totally get what you are saying....we have a guy that just scored 34 goals and 92 points, why on Earth would you want to move him. I don't think actively trying to trade him is the answer, but, I see nothing wrong with putting his name out there and see if anyone makes a serious offer. But, he also plays a position the Penguins are loaded at in RW. Yes, I would like to see more of Sprong before counting on him as a solid RW contributor, but that's on the Penguins for not getting him more time this season, not Sprong.

The Penguins got their 2 Cups with Kessel, but he isn't a core player for them. He's close, but he's not someone they won't move under any circumstances. We need to be able to move on from players and not think we need to hang onto everyone because they helped us win a Cup. That's not a thing against Kessel. It's just that, this year should have proved that sometimes returning the whole same team from the previous CUp year isn't always the best solution. You need fresh blood. Don't settle on Tommy Kuhnhackl as your 4th liner, when you have the chance to get a guy that can play a similar level of defense and PK ability, but actually provide more production as well. Don't settle on having a lineup filled with multiple smallish guys in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, etc, when you can possibly improve on those players.


Good post, that is my feeling to, and that I have tried to say. We need more youth, maybe not for this year, but in the coming years, and to get that, and to get that with potential, we NEED to trade some of the valuable players, or, in a few years we will really suffer since we have trade so many 1st and 2nd rounders for may years and don't really have any players with a high potential in WBS. Sure we can find a new Letang or Guntzel with a lower draft pick, but I would not rely on that.

And for this, Kessel and Letang is our best option.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 18, 2018 7:59 am

It's very possible what happened in Detroit happens in Pittsburgh. Datsuyk and Lindstrom retired with no viable replacement, Franzen ended up wearing down, and Zetterberg is now making the same money as when he was winning cups but is half the player.

There's a fine line between selling to early and too late. With Kessel he trended up this season with 92 pts. At 6.8M that is a bargin and even if he trends flat or slightly down this season I think there will still be a demand. With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.

To me with that salary it's just too much of a gamble, so I'd move him now and get what I can.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 18, 2018 8:18 am

thehockeyguru wrote:It's very possible what happened in Detroit happens in Pittsburgh. Datsuyk and Lindstrom retired with no viable replacement, Franzen ended up wearing down, and Zetterberg is now making the same money as when he was winning cups but is half the player.

There's a fine line between selling to early and too late. With Kessel he trended up this season with 92 pts. At 6.8M that is a bargin and even if he trends flat or slightly down this season I think there will still be a demand. With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.

To me with that salary it's just too much of a gamble, so I'd move him now and get what I can.



You would be selling Letang low at this point, but even at that it may be a bargain for the Penguins. As bad as Letang was in the regular season at times, he was that much worse in the playoffs. It was not like he was getting better over time. Nothing will fix his mental mistakes. Nothing. You take the good with the bad with him. The Penguins can win without that risk, which is why trading him in my opinion makes sense.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby penny lane on Fri May 18, 2018 8:27 am

Letang was not able to train at all before the season began. He is a notorious fitness guy. The pens would spend more looking for what they give up in Letang. Him, Domoulin, and Maatta - make a terrific 50% of your D men.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Big Easy Pens Fan on Fri May 18, 2018 8:50 am

With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.


You make some good points regarding Letang here. But the one above is the most critical. I've been on this board for nearly 10 years and ever since Letang started with the Pens the most frequent complaints here have been about his mental mistakes. That makes me wonder if he will ever be able to correct those mistakes. He is a terriffic player, but if his brain ever catches up to his physical atributes, he could be otherworldly. After such a long time playing this game can we ever really expect this to happen for him? Is it still possible?

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 18, 2018 9:56 am

Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:
With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.


You make some good points regarding Letang here. But the one above is the most critical. I've been on this board for nearly 10 years and ever since Letang started with the Pens the most frequent complaints here have been about his mental mistakes. That makes me wonder if he will ever be able to correct those mistakes. He is a terriffic player, but if his brain ever catches up to his physical atributes, he could be otherworldly. After such a long time playing this game can we ever really expect this to happen for him? Is it still possible?

BEPF

I can't recall if it was at the All-Star game, or when Penguins played SJ twice in January, that one of the Penguins beat reporters ( I want to say Yohe or Mackey) was talking about Kris Letang and his struggles with Brent Burns.

Burns was basically saying he knows Letang will come around. He said something to the effect that people that don't play the game, or don't play the game at a high/elite level do not realize how slim the margins are on a lot of these plays. You see Letang make a giveaway and think wow, that's a really dumb, bad play......but when those guys are at the top of their game, the margin between that play being a bad, bonehead play and a great successful play are very, very slim....like fractions of an inch at times. Essentially, he seemed to be saying it's all timing, and when your timing is off, those really hard high end plays typically work against you and don't work, and when your timing is on, they succeed much more than they fail. That leads into the not having much training this summer, and his timing being off most of the year, as well as thinking too much about not getting into position to be hit (something the Penguins have asked him to do).
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 18, 2018 10:34 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:
With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.


You make some good points regarding Letang here. But the one above is the most critical. I've been on this board for nearly 10 years and ever since Letang started with the Pens the most frequent complaints here have been about his mental mistakes. That makes me wonder if he will ever be able to correct those mistakes. He is a terriffic player, but if his brain ever catches up to his physical atributes, he could be otherworldly. After such a long time playing this game can we ever really expect this to happen for him? Is it still possible?

BEPF

I can't recall if it was at the All-Star game, or when Penguins played SJ twice in January, that one of the Penguins beat reporters ( I want to say Yohe or Mackey) was talking about Kris Letang and his struggles with Brent Burns.

Burns was basically saying he knows Letang will come around. He said something to the effect that people that don't play the game, or don't play the game at a high/elite level do not realize how slim the margins are on a lot of these plays. You see Letang make a giveaway and think wow, that's a really dumb, bad play......but when those guys are at the top of their game, the margin between that play being a bad, bonehead play and a great successful play are very, very slim....like fractions of an inch at times. Essentially, he seemed to be saying it's all timing, and when your timing is off, those really hard high end plays typically work against you and don't work, and when your timing is on, they succeed much more than they fail. That leads into the not having much training this summer, and his timing being off most of the year, as well as thinking too much about not getting into position to be hit (something the Penguins have asked him to do).


I do not doubt that some of the plays he makes were inches away from being something different entirely, but it really is not the job of a defensemen to make those kind of risky plays... ESPECIALLY, when you have a team full of offensive-minded forwards. It would be different if Letang played on a team that needed the help from the backend. Our team is not built that way, which is why it just does not seem to make sense to have him taking those risks. Unfortunately, Kris is not smart enough/willing to remove that style of play from his game. Game 5 was a perfect example, but there are many many more.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri May 18, 2018 10:55 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Big Easy Pens Fan wrote:
With Letang he is trending down. The question there is can he rebound? It's clear the skating is still there but he's making terrible mental mistakes. If he can't fix those and it's another season of the status quo he likely moves into unmovable territory.


You make some good points regarding Letang here. But the one above is the most critical. I've been on this board for nearly 10 years and ever since Letang started with the Pens the most frequent complaints here have been about his mental mistakes. That makes me wonder if he will ever be able to correct those mistakes. He is a terriffic player, but if his brain ever catches up to his physical atributes, he could be otherworldly. After such a long time playing this game can we ever really expect this to happen for him? Is it still possible?

BEPF

I can't recall if it was at the All-Star game, or when Penguins played SJ twice in January, that one of the Penguins beat reporters ( I want to say Yohe or Mackey) was talking about Kris Letang and his struggles with Brent Burns.

Burns was basically saying he knows Letang will come around. He said something to the effect that people that don't play the game, or don't play the game at a high/elite level do not realize how slim the margins are on a lot of these plays. You see Letang make a giveaway and think wow, that's a really dumb, bad play......but when those guys are at the top of their game, the margin between that play being a bad, bonehead play and a great successful play are very, very slim....like fractions of an inch at times. Essentially, he seemed to be saying it's all timing, and when your timing is off, those really hard high end plays typically work against you and don't work, and when your timing is on, they succeed much more than they fail. That leads into the not having much training this summer, and his timing being off most of the year, as well as thinking too much about not getting into position to be hit (something the Penguins have asked him to do).


How off was his timing when he went from the middle of the ice to Dumoulin's side to change a 2 on 2 to a breakaway?

As much as it's frustrating to watch shot after shot hit a shin pad, those are the plays that are why he should be traded. I think his risk outweighs the reward. Not that he can't change, but 10+ years in, when will that happen?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 18, 2018 11:21 am

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
SubtropicalPenguin wrote:I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.

The point of moving Kessel is to not be stuck with him and his 6.8M cap hit when his game starts to tail off. It has zero to do with his performance in the playoffs, and a lot to do with his performance in the regular season. Kessel is not a regular player. Management has had issues with him in Boston and in Toronto. Maybe you think those were overblown, but, some of those issues are starting to creep up in Pittsburgh....starting with Rutherford saying he was injured with various ailments, and Sullivan saying he had no serious injuries that would have affected his game. There's a disconnect there. There seems to be a greater divide between Kessel and Sully, to the point this could be reaching Sully/Cole levels.

I totally get what you are saying....we have a guy that just scored 34 goals and 92 points, why on Earth would you want to move him. I don't think actively trying to trade him is the answer, but, I see nothing wrong with putting his name out there and see if anyone makes a serious offer. But, he also plays a position the Penguins are loaded at in RW. Yes, I would like to see more of Sprong before counting on him as a solid RW contributor, but that's on the Penguins for not getting him more time this season, not Sprong.

The Penguins got their 2 Cups with Kessel, but he isn't a core player for them. He's close, but he's not someone they won't move under any circumstances. We need to be able to move on from players and not think we need to hang onto everyone because they helped us win a Cup. That's not a thing against Kessel. It's just that, this year should have proved that sometimes returning the whole same team from the previous CUp year isn't always the best solution. You need fresh blood. Don't settle on Tommy Kuhnhackl as your 4th liner, when you have the chance to get a guy that can play a similar level of defense and PK ability, but actually provide more production as well. Don't settle on having a lineup filled with multiple smallish guys in Guentzel, Sheary, Rust, etc, when you can possibly improve on those players.


Question, of the next generation of Pens, who do you consider the core? I look at Maatta, Guenztel, Murray (I think Jarry can work his way there if Murray can't get past his injury prone label) as the core for the new group of players. Not to say they're untouchable by any means , but they seem to be trending upwards (minus Murray's injury problems, hopefully he can end that next season) and it would be nice to hold onto them for the foreseeable future.

So, current core is Crosby, Malkin, Letang, and Murray.

I see the future core as Guentzel, Sprong, Maatta, and Murray. 4-5 years down the road, these guys will all be around 27-28 years old, still young enough and likely in their prime. Anyone older than 24 or 25 (Dumoulin, Schultz, for example) are going to be over 30 when Crosby/Malkin are 35, too old to "build around". I'll also say Sprong is included for now because of his potential, but he has a lot to prove over the next year or two to really cement himself in that core. He flops, things get that much more difficult for this team post-Crosby/Malkin.

Rutherford's biggest challenge is going to be trading some of the old core or "near-core" guys at the right time to restock. Their biggest need is going to be a young 20-22 year old stud center. How do they get that with what they have now, and when do you pull the trigger on that? In my book, as much as I love Malkin (usually a bigger Malkin fan overall than Crosby), I think Malkin could be a trade candidate in 3 years or so. If you could trade Malkin, and get a young up and coming center......to me, as a fan, that is more important than trying to hang onto the "old core" too long. I think Crosby is a Penguin for life, but at some point, they are going to need to move away from Malkin and get younger at the 2C position. It would be a bad move going into the post 87/71 era trying to find 2 top 6 centers.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 18, 2018 1:03 pm

I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Fri May 18, 2018 1:22 pm

FLPensFan wrote:I see the future core as Guentzel, Sprong, Maatta, and Murray. 4-5 years down the road, these guys will all be around 27-28 years old, still young enough and likely in their prime. Anyone older than 24 or 25 (Dumoulin, Schultz, for example) are going to be over 30 when Crosby/Malkin are 35, too old to "build around". I'll also say Sprong is included for now because of his potential, but he has a lot to prove over the next year or two to really cement himself in that core. He flops, things get that much more difficult for this team post-Crosby/Malkin.


With the "John Tavares" conversation from before, right now is too soon, but if this were 4-5 years later, I think it'd be a good conversation to have. From an NHL fan, I like that the fact that we don't see superstars move around as often as other sports, but as a Pens fans, it'd be nice if Connor McDavid were a UFA in 4 years.

But to your point, if the Pens can get ZAR or someone else to just below core status, one bad year could be a pretty quick retool with the right superstar top pick.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby penny lane on Fri May 18, 2018 1:27 pm

Evgeni will not be traded! Not while Sid is also a penguin.
A double retirement- numbers to the rafters-together.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri May 18, 2018 1:30 pm

penny lane wrote:Evgeni will not be traded! Not while Sid is also a penguin.
A double retirement- numbers to the rafters-together.


That would be great. Hopefully with a ring on every finger too!
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Fri May 18, 2018 1:40 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Neither view is right or wrong. As I said, I tend to be a bit more of a Malkin fan then a Crosby fan, but I am a Penguins fan above all else. I'd just hate for the Penguins to end up similar to Detroit. Yes they have only missed the playoffs the last 2 years, but the 3 years prior were all 1st round exits. I think Detroit is a perfect example of a team that won the Cup near the end of its window. Lidstrom, Franzen, Datsyuk, Holmstrom from that Cup winning team have all retired. Guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson are all a few years away from either retiring or being marginal players. If the 08-09 season was their last great team and attempt at the Cup, they are working on 10 years of not being very relevant. They have a few pieces like Larkin, Athanasiou, and Mantha, but beyond that, they have no solid young defenseman, or up and coming young goalies. They look like they have another 3 or 4 years of drafting to become relevant.

Me personally, I don't want to see the Penguins get to that point. The Penguins are loaded with stars that, if they plan carefully, they can trade some of those stars away at the right time, and acquire younger players that grow into stardom in a year or two. Maybe that requires a Malkin or Letang to be traded.....maybe they can make it work with only having to move guys like Kessel, Hornqvist, and Schultz instead of Geno or Letang. But I think they have the assets to tweak and retool on the fly without dropping to a bottom 5 team in the league.

The next phase after though, another 10-15 years down the road......then it may be tougher and time to rack up some high end picks.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby jreed on Fri May 18, 2018 1:57 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.


I feel the same way. It would be really hard to see Geno play elsewhere.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby interstorm on Fri May 18, 2018 2:01 pm

lemieuxReturns wrote:
penny lane wrote:Evgeni will not be traded! Not while Sid is also a penguin.
A double retirement- numbers to the rafters-together.


That would be great. Hopefully with a ring on every finger too!


I think these two are the only truly untouchable players on the roster -- at this point anyone else can come and go if/when needed (Fleury was probably the closest we had to being the 3rd on the list). At some point management does need to think about the next generation and what the team will look like in 2 - 4 - 6 years. I think our window is still completely open however, as a previous poster said (in reference to the Detroit Redwings), there is a fine line between selling too soon and too late. Kessel had a wonderful year, Letang still has the ability to be a top 5-7 D-man in this league. Do we keep them and shoot for this year or do we look to move them for the right deal (should it present itself) to get younger?

Big questions...
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Fri May 18, 2018 4:55 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Neither view is right or wrong. As I said, I tend to be a bit more of a Malkin fan then a Crosby fan, but I am a Penguins fan above all else. I'd just hate for the Penguins to end up similar to Detroit. Yes they have only missed the playoffs the last 2 years, but the 3 years prior were all 1st round exits. I think Detroit is a perfect example of a team that won the Cup near the end of its window. Lidstrom, Franzen, Datsyuk, Holmstrom from that Cup winning team have all retired. Guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson are all a few years away from either retiring or being marginal players. If the 08-09 season was their last great team and attempt at the Cup, they are working on 10 years of not being very relevant. They have a few pieces like Larkin, Athanasiou, and Mantha, but beyond that, they have no solid young defenseman, or up and coming young goalies. They look like they have another 3 or 4 years of drafting to become relevant.

Me personally, I don't want to see the Penguins get to that point. The Penguins are loaded with stars that, if they plan carefully, they can trade some of those stars away at the right time, and acquire younger players that grow into stardom in a year or two. Maybe that requires a Malkin or Letang to be traded.....maybe they can make it work with only having to move guys like Kessel, Hornqvist, and Schultz instead of Geno or Letang. But I think they have the assets to tweak and retool on the fly without dropping to a bottom 5 team in the league.

The next phase after though, another 10-15 years down the road......then it may be tougher and time to rack up some high end picks.

Detroit is a bit different, their problem is not rebuilding after they weren't competing for cups anymore, barely making the playoffs for an additional three years isn't worth holding onto guys for, that is when you might have to get worse for a few years to become a contender again rather than holding on and being mediocre for longer causing the rebuild to contender to be longer.

The pens are contending for a cup so anything that makes them worse for a year or two is not a good move IMO. If in several years they are in a situation where they are mediocre then I would be fine trading malkin, kessel etc. but until it gets to that point any trade needs to be focused on whats best for the next few years not 10 years.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat May 19, 2018 12:08 am

FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Neither view is right or wrong. As I said, I tend to be a bit more of a Malkin fan then a Crosby fan, but I am a Penguins fan above all else. I'd just hate for the Penguins to end up similar to Detroit. Yes they have only missed the playoffs the last 2 years, but the 3 years prior were all 1st round exits. I think Detroit is a perfect example of a team that won the Cup near the end of its window. Lidstrom, Franzen, Datsyuk, Holmstrom from that Cup winning team have all retired. Guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson are all a few years away from either retiring or being marginal players. If the 08-09 season was their last great team and attempt at the Cup, they are working on 10 years of not being very relevant. They have a few pieces like Larkin, Athanasiou, and Mantha, but beyond that, they have no solid young defenseman, or up and coming young goalies. They look like they have another 3 or 4 years of drafting to become relevant.

Me personally, I don't want to see the Penguins get to that point. The Penguins are loaded with stars that, if they plan carefully, they can trade some of those stars away at the right time, and acquire younger players that grow into stardom in a year or two. Maybe that requires a Malkin or Letang to be traded.....maybe they can make it work with only having to move guys like Kessel, Hornqvist, and Schultz instead of Geno or Letang. But I think they have the assets to tweak and retool on the fly without dropping to a bottom 5 team in the league.

The next phase after though, another 10-15 years down the road......then it may be tougher and time to rack up some high end picks.


I'm convinced now more than ever that this team is better without Letang. You lose guys like Daley, Hainsey, and Cole that block shots and play smart defense for a guy who is way too Cavalier and you see the result.

I'd love for the Pens to move Letang and Hunwick. Find that shot blocking PK specialist who can play with Schultz on the 2nd pairing and play Maataa with Oleksiak. If the Pens can move Letang and sign Carlson then find a true replacement for Cole that is a very solid D core.

I'm a solid believer in building from the net out. Murray will be fine if you fix the D.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Defence21 on Sat May 19, 2018 7:47 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I am the kind of fan who would rather sit through 3-5 years of mediocrity while missing the playoffs than trade a living legend like Malkin in order to rebuild without missing a beat. I really am. I would rather see Geno's number up in the rafters knowing he only played for us than seeing him shipped off via a trade to somehow try and make us a better team for the future.

I do not feel this way for everyone. But guys like Sid and Geno. Guys like Mario and Jagr. They all deserved to be Penguins for life.

Damn. It was painful to watch Jagr play for the Capitals and that was even after Jagr had requested to be traded. I could only imagine how painful it would be seeing Geno play for another team.... and he isn't the kind of guy who would request a trade.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Neither view is right or wrong. As I said, I tend to be a bit more of a Malkin fan then a Crosby fan, but I am a Penguins fan above all else. I'd just hate for the Penguins to end up similar to Detroit. Yes they have only missed the playoffs the last 2 years, but the 3 years prior were all 1st round exits. I think Detroit is a perfect example of a team that won the Cup near the end of its window. Lidstrom, Franzen, Datsyuk, Holmstrom from that Cup winning team have all retired. Guys like Zetterberg, Kronwall, Howard, and Ericsson are all a few years away from either retiring or being marginal players. If the 08-09 season was their last great team and attempt at the Cup, they are working on 10 years of not being very relevant. They have a few pieces like Larkin, Athanasiou, and Mantha, but beyond that, they have no solid young defenseman, or up and coming young goalies. They look like they have another 3 or 4 years of drafting to become relevant.

Me personally, I don't want to see the Penguins get to that point. The Penguins are loaded with stars that, if they plan carefully, they can trade some of those stars away at the right time, and acquire younger players that grow into stardom in a year or two. Maybe that requires a Malkin or Letang to be traded.....maybe they can make it work with only having to move guys like Kessel, Hornqvist, and Schultz instead of Geno or Letang. But I think they have the assets to tweak and retool on the fly without dropping to a bottom 5 team in the league.

The next phase after though, another 10-15 years down the road......then it may be tougher and time to rack up some high end picks.


I'm convinced now more than ever that this team is better without Letang. You lose guys like Daley, Hainsey, and Cole that block shots and play smart defense for a guy who is way too Cavalier and you see the result.

I'd love for the Pens to move Letang and Hunwick. Find that shot blocking PK specialist who can play with Schultz on the 2nd pairing and play Maataa with Oleksiak. If the Pens can move Letang and sign Carlson then find a true replacement for Cole that is a very solid D core.

I'm a solid believer in building from the net out. Murray will be fine if you fix the D.

I agree. Yes, Letang may be one of the most talented defenders in the NHL, but he consistently makes rookie mistakes. With Schultz more than capable of running the power play, the need for Letang's offense is lessened, and he's certainly not on the team for his stellar defense. I always find it funny when people ask, "Who will cover Letang's minutes?" First of all, the Pens proved last year that a committee approach can work. Second of all, if Letang is exposed mentally on a regular basis, is it really that hard to cover his minutes?

With all of this being said, I want to be clear that I do not think Letang is a horrible player. He's a star. But he's an extremely frustrating star who neutralizes many of his amazing plays with horrible ones. He's a luxury, and one the Penguins would be better served trading.

I like your approach: sign Carlson to play with Dumoulin and a defense-first defender to play on the second or third pair. Use Letang to acquire a few prospects and/or picks and/or a depth forward.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Sat May 19, 2018 10:00 am

GMJR knows that we have the pieces available to shake up this team a bit. I would be very surprised if Letang, Sheary, and Hunwick are all on the team come training camp.
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