Uncomfortable decisions ahead for Penguins

[Jim]

Rutherford should do for Riikola what Edmonton did for Marino.

And what regret trading him?

The coach doesn't use him. Give him a shot elsewhere.

[Maestro]

Maybe instead of dealing Riikola out of the gate the Pens should consider switching out a strategy of play that clearly no longer works?

Just a thought.

[Jim]

Maybe instead of dealing Riikola out of the gate the Pens should consider switching out a strategy of play that clearly no longer works?

Just a thought.

That would require the coach to be good.

But the Pens have Sullivan.

[Jim]

You said that Johnson's contract isn't a problem. Show me a team that will take Johnson without us giving up an asset or equally bad contract in return.

That in and of itself is a problem

Maybe you need to Google "guru", cause... nope.

I was quite clear in what I said about Johnson's contract and even explained why. Your inability to understand simple finances is your problem. Your constant desire to try to prove me wrong is obsessive.

Johnson's contract is a mosquito bite. But if you want to spew hate on it then direct that at Crosby, not me.

[thehockeyguru]

You said that Johnson's contract isn't a problem. Show me a team that will take Johnson without us giving up an asset or equally bad contract in return.

That in and of itself is a problem

Maybe you need to Google "guru", cause... nope.

I was quite clear in what I said about Johnson's contract and even explained why. Your inability to understand simple finances is your problem. Your constant desire to try to prove me wrong is obsessive.

Johnson's contract is a mosquito bite. But if you want to spew hate on it then direct that at Crosby, not me.

Lol ok Jim I disagree, and you're entitled to your opinion.

I'm fine with that, I thought messages boards were a forum to discuss ideas. I guess its only a place where everyone has to agree.

[Jim]

You said that Johnson's contract isn't a problem. Show me a team that will take Johnson without us giving up an asset or equally bad contract in return.

That in and of itself is a problem

Maybe you need to Google "guru", cause... nope.

I was quite clear in what I said about Johnson's contract and even explained why. Your inability to understand simple finances is your problem. Your constant desire to try to prove me wrong is obsessive.

Johnson's contract is a mosquito bite. But if you want to spew hate on it then direct that at Crosby, not me.

Lol ok Jim I disagree, and you're entitled to your opinion.

I'm fine with that, I thought messages boards were a forum to discuss ideas. I guess its only a place where everyone has to agree.

Yeah, and I explained the situation with the contract and you ignored it. Is that your definition of a discussion? Ignore what is said and keep pushing the agenda? Maybe Google "discussion" too. Your only comeback was "Show me a team that will take Johnson without us giving up an asset or equally bad contract in return." which is strawman to what I explained.

But you got some attention from me... so at least you have that.

[sjnhiils]

So the coaches thought Rikola lacked "defensive awareness." It couldn"t have been any worse than the five guys that were standing around for the game winner in game 4 even though there were only two guys near them. The whole team lacked defensive awareness when they went 3-8 at the end of the season. In those 8 losses, they gave up 35 goals averaging almost 41/2 a game. Sullivan is not blameless but maybe that is why he was afraid to open it up more. Sort of what like Mike Johnston did because they both did not trust them defensively. Before that 3-8 stretch, the Pens had won three in a row after beating Toronto at home. They went to Toronto the next night thinking it was going to be a cakewalk and got their clocks cleaned 4-0. They came back home Sunday(unfortunately I was there) and looked horrible in a 5-2 loss to Buffalo. I truly believe this was the turning point in the season for them because they were never really the same team again and it carried itself into the playoffs.

[thehockeyguru]

The penguins spend to the cap every season, in January the cap was projected to be between 84 and 87 million. When that changes and is kept flat that effects a teams financial planning. Then paying Johnson 3.25M vs Riikola or POJ 900k becomes an issue. What if there is truth to the rumor that the Pens want to cut salary and hope to be in the 75M range?

They likely will have to trade a guy like McCann vs giving him the 1 or 2M extra he wants.

I understand your point that 3.25M is roughly 4% of the cap, but the circumstances surrounding the cap have changed and every dollar is going to matter. The pens now have to totally rework their capital budgeting and Johnson is a prohibitive opportunity cost.

[KG]

Riikola "lacked defensive awareness" that made me chuckle...Just keep putting that vaunted 3rd D pairing out Sully. They clearly weren't lacking defensive awareness...sigh

Once you're in Sully's doghouse, you're done here. Reaves, Cole, Pearson, Galchenyuk. Notice all of these players have had success elsewhere. That's why I blame the last 3 failures on Sully more than JR.

[sjnhiils]

Riikola "lacked defensive awareness" that made me chuckle...Just keep putting that vaunted 3rd D pairing out Sully. They clearly weren't lacking defensive awareness...sigh

Once you're in Sully's doghouse, you're done here. Reaves, Cole, Pearson, Galchenyuk. Notice all of these players have had success elsewhere. That's why I blame the last 3 failures on Sully more than JR.

I'd add Sundqvist, Archibald and Grant to that list as well. Look how he treated Scott Wilson as well. After playing him the whole playoffs including the Cup finals the year before, he quickly got in his doghouse and was traded early in t hed season.

[KG]

Here's an idea...

Nashville will be looking to make changes. They have a really bad contract in Turris 4 more years at $6mill. Pens have Horny for 3 more years at $5.3mill. Turris has one more year on his contract then Horny. What if we added JJ and retained $1mill per year ($3mill total). Would that be a way for us to get out of the JJ contract? is it worth it? Turris has skill, maybe he could center the 3rd line. Still only 31.

Horny + JJ, $1mill retained
Turris

I don't love it, but I think we are going to see a lot of these contract for contract trades this year with a flat cap.

Or, you can do Bjugstad for Bonino. Both 1 year left on their contracts an make the same $4.1mill. Again just shuffling players to change it up.

[sjnhiils]

Here's an idea...

Nashville will be looking to make changes. They have a really bad contract in Turris 4 more years at $6mill. Pens have Horny for 3 more years at $5.3mill. Turris has one more year on his contract then Horny. What if we added JJ and retained $1mill per year ($3mill total). Would that be a way for us to get out of the JJ contract? is it worth it? Turris has skill, maybe he could center the 3rd line. Still only 31.

Horny + JJ, $1mill retained
Turris

I don't love it, but I think we are going to see a lot of these contract for contract trades this year with a flat cap.

Or, you can do Bjugstad for Bonino. Both 1 year left on their contracts an make the same $4.1mill. Again just shuffling players to change it up.

Maybe sign Granlund for 3c. Craig Smith would also look good on Crosby's wing.

[FLPensFan]

Here's an idea...

Nashville will be looking to make changes. They have a really bad contract in Turris 4 more years at $6mill. Pens have Horny for 3 more years at $5.3mill. Turris has one more year on his contract then Horny. What if we added JJ and retained $1mill per year ($3mill total). Would that be a way for us to get out of the JJ contract? is it worth it? Turris has skill, maybe he could center the 3rd line. Still only 31.

Horny + JJ, $1mill retained
Turris

I don't love it, but I think we are going to see a lot of these contract for contract trades this year with a flat cap.

Or, you can do Bjugstad for Bonino. Both 1 year left on their contracts an make the same $4.1mill. Again just shuffling players to change it up.

I think the idea is right, but I don't know if either of those really work.

With Turris, we are putting ourselves in a hole for an extra 6M, as he has 4 seasons left, versus 3 for JJ and Horny. Plus, Nashville has under 10M in cap space with only 17 players signed. That deal adds an extra 2.2M to Nashville's cap. Not sure they would be interested.

Heck, I'd rather just as well see Johnson for Rask swap with Minnesota. While Rask has been a disappointment in points production, his possession numbers, GF%, etc were all very much on the positive side. His salary is too much and he doesn't produce a lot, at least hasn't with with Minnesota....but I see him as a much more useful player than Jack Johnson. Rask is 750K more expensive, but, he's only got 2 seasons left compared to JJ's 3 seasons.

I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.

[KG]

Here's an idea...

Nashville will be looking to make changes. They have a really bad contract in Turris 4 more years at $6mill. Pens have Horny for 3 more years at $5.3mill. Turris has one more year on his contract then Horny. What if we added JJ and retained $1mill per year ($3mill total). Would that be a way for us to get out of the JJ contract? is it worth it? Turris has skill, maybe he could center the 3rd line. Still only 31.

Horny + JJ, $1mill retained
Turris

I don't love it, but I think we are going to see a lot of these contract for contract trades this year with a flat cap.

Or, you can do Bjugstad for Bonino. Both 1 year left on their contracts an make the same $4.1mill. Again just shuffling players to change it up.

I think the idea is right, but I don't know if either of those really work.

With Turris, we are putting ourselves in a hole for an extra 6M, as he has 4 seasons left, versus 3 for JJ and Horny. Plus, Nashville has under 10M in cap space with only 17 players signed. That deal adds an extra 2.2M to Nashville's cap. Not sure they would be interested.

Heck, I'd rather just as well see Johnson for Rask swap with Minnesota. While Rask has been a disappointment in points production, his possession numbers, GF%, etc were all very much on the positive side. His salary is too much and he doesn't produce a lot, at least hasn't with with Minnesota....but I see him as a much more useful player than Jack Johnson. Rask is 750K more expensive, but, he's only got 2 seasons left compared to JJ's 3 seasons.

I'd make that trade in a heartbeat.

I could see the JJ/Rask trade discussed again. Just looked up Rask. He was drafted by Carolina in 2011 2nd round. JR pick...he was good in Carolina for 3 years. Really fell off obviously. But yes, take that deal.

[largegarlic]

Riikola "lacked defensive awareness" that made me chuckle...Just keep putting that vaunted 3rd D pairing out Sully. They clearly weren't lacking defensive awareness...sigh

Once you're in Sully's doghouse, you're done here. Reaves, Cole, Pearson, Galchenyuk. Notice all of these players have had success elsewhere. That's why I blame the last 3 failures on Sully more than JR.

I'd add Sundqvist, Archibald and Grant to that list as well. Look how he treated Scott Wilson as well. After playing him the whole playoffs including the Cup finals the year before, he quickly got in his doghouse and was traded early in t hed season.

I'd add Kahun to the list too. We gave up the guy who was younger, had better stats, and was RFA instead UFA to get Sheary, presumably because he was Sullivan's/Crosby's guy, and now we're hoping Sheary walks in free agency. And Sullivan seems to have no interest in Rodrigues.

That's why I said before that you can forgive a couple of these if the coach is still pushing the right buttons overall, but since the '17 Cup, it's not a pretty list of the players that the Pens dumped because Sullivan didn't like them.

[Jim]

The penguins spend to the cap every season, in January the cap was projected to be between 84 and 87 million. When that changes and is kept flat that effects a teams financial planning. Then paying Johnson 3.25M vs Riikola or POJ 900k becomes an issue. What if there is truth to the rumor that the Pens want to cut salary and hope to be in the 75M range?

They likely will have to trade a guy like McCann vs giving him the 1 or 2M extra he wants.

I understand your point that 3.25M is roughly 4% of the cap, but the circumstances surrounding the cap have changed and every dollar is going to matter. The pens now have to totally rework their capital budgeting and Johnson is a prohibitive opportunity cost.

Yeah, so his contract is annoying. Similar to a mosquito bite. Not the cause of any of the Penguins problems.

[thehockeyguru]

The penguins spend to the cap every season, in January the cap was projected to be between 84 and 87 million. When that changes and is kept flat that effects a teams financial planning. Then paying Johnson 3.25M vs Riikola or POJ 900k becomes an issue. What if there is truth to the rumor that the Pens want to cut salary and hope to be in the 75M range?

They likely will have to trade a guy like McCann vs giving him the 1 or 2M extra he wants.

I understand your point that 3.25M is roughly 4% of the cap, but the circumstances surrounding the cap have changed and every dollar is going to matter. The pens now have to totally rework their capital budgeting and Johnson is a prohibitive opportunity cost.

Yeah, so his contract is annoying. Similar to a mosquito bite. Not the cause of any of the Penguins problems.

I dont know that we can gauge the severity yet. Let's see what the impact the stagnant cap has on the Pens and other teams trying to move salary.

[GSdrums87]

Could you look to Chicago for Murray and try to build something around Strome or DeBrincat?

Could you look to Minnesota for Murray to bring back someone like Dumba?

Adding pieces like McCann and Rust to push it along of course.

Also looking at FAs this offseason: Erik Gustafsson would be an interesting play. PP minded guy a couple years removed from. Huge year.

Random ramblings.

[FLPensFan]

Could you look to Chicago for Murray and try to build something around Strome or DeBrincat?

Could you look to Minnesota for Murray to bring back someone like Dumba?

Adding pieces like McCann and Rust to push it along of course.

Also looking at FAs this offseason: Erik Gustafsson would be an interesting play. PP minded guy a couple years removed from. Huge year.

Random ramblings.

Chicago should have interest in Murray, but, I can't see them giving up Strome or DeBrincat. They don't have a ton of young guys....Strome, DeBrincat, Dach, and Kubalik are about it right now. Hopefully, GMJR doesn't want to revisit Saad. He's a UFA after this coming season, and, with the acquisition of Zucker, I think Saad is a bit in that same mold as Zucker and Rust, and adding another player of that ilk wouldn't work well.

Minnesota for Dumba seems like a possibility only if the Penguins move Letang somewhere else. Dumba is RD and accustomed to 20-23 minutes a night. He'd have to be 2nd pairing at least, and Penguins aren't going to bump Marino to 3rd pair. He's too good. Dumba is also 6M AAV...might be a little higher than Pens would want to pay, especially with Marino needing a new deal after next season. Expect Marino's deal to be at least 4M AAV. Maybe 4M AAV for a 2 year bridge. He'd be 26 and still an RFA, and at that point Penguins could give him a big deal. I don't think you would need much to a Murray for Dumba trade.

Gustafsson was supposedly on Penguins radar last year or two. But he's a LH LD, so that would be a blocker to POJ, and, if you aren't committed to moving Johnson, there's no point.

[GSdrums87]

Could you look to Chicago for Murray and try to build something around Strome or DeBrincat?

Could you look to Minnesota for Murray to bring back someone like Dumba?

Adding pieces like McCann and Rust to push it along of course.

Also looking at FAs this offseason: Erik Gustafsson would be an interesting play. PP minded guy a couple years removed from. Huge year.

Random ramblings.

Chicago should have interest in Murray, but, I can't see them giving up Strome or DeBrincat. They don't have a ton of young guys....Strome, DeBrincat, Dach, and Kubalik are about it right now. Hopefully, GMJR doesn't want to revisit Saad. He's a UFA after this coming season, and, with the acquisition of Zucker, I think Saad is a bit in that same mold as Zucker and Rust, and adding another player of that ilk wouldn't work well.

Minnesota for Dumba seems like a possibility only if the Penguins move Letang somewhere else. Dumba is RD and accustomed to 20-23 minutes a night. He'd have to be 2nd pairing at least, and Penguins aren't going to bump Marino to 3rd pair. He's too good. Dumba is also 6M AAV...might be a little higher than Pens would want to pay, especially with Marino needing a new deal after next season. Expect Marino's deal to be at least 4M AAV. Maybe 4M AAV for a 2 year bridge. He'd be 26 and still an RFA, and at that point Penguins could give him a big deal. I don't think you would need much to a Murray for Dumba trade.

Gustafsson was supposedly on Penguins radar last year or two. But he's a LH LD, so that would be a blocker to POJ, and, if you aren't committed to moving Johnson, there's no point.

Well in my brain I'm committed to them moving on from JJ, but who knows what they're thinking with him.

Gustafsson is a solid look. If you can roll Dumolin-Gustafsson-POJ down the left, that's pretty solid.

Make that Murray for Dumba swap happen, get Letang up to Toronto for Nylander, and you have a solid D corps. I'm still a proponent of not letting Riikola go.

But then again, I'm all about rolling 3 solid pairings evenly. There's only a few TRUE #1 dmen in the league. Eat minutes, QB a PP, kill penalties, etc. And they get paid. Letang is NOT that.

[FLPensFan]

Could you look to Chicago for Murray and try to build something around Strome or DeBrincat?

Could you look to Minnesota for Murray to bring back someone like Dumba?

Adding pieces like McCann and Rust to push it along of course.

Also looking at FAs this offseason: Erik Gustafsson would be an interesting play. PP minded guy a couple years removed from. Huge year.

Random ramblings.

Chicago should have interest in Murray, but, I can't see them giving up Strome or DeBrincat. They don't have a ton of young guys....Strome, DeBrincat, Dach, and Kubalik are about it right now. Hopefully, GMJR doesn't want to revisit Saad. He's a UFA after this coming season, and, with the acquisition of Zucker, I think Saad is a bit in that same mold as Zucker and Rust, and adding another player of that ilk wouldn't work well.

Minnesota for Dumba seems like a possibility only if the Penguins move Letang somewhere else. Dumba is RD and accustomed to 20-23 minutes a night. He'd have to be 2nd pairing at least, and Penguins aren't going to bump Marino to 3rd pair. He's too good. Dumba is also 6M AAV...might be a little higher than Pens would want to pay, especially with Marino needing a new deal after next season. Expect Marino's deal to be at least 4M AAV. Maybe 4M AAV for a 2 year bridge. He'd be 26 and still an RFA, and at that point Penguins could give him a big deal. I don't think you would need much to a Murray for Dumba trade.

Gustafsson was supposedly on Penguins radar last year or two. But he's a LH LD, so that would be a blocker to POJ, and, if you aren't committed to moving Johnson, there's no point.

Well in my brain I'm committed to them moving on from JJ, but who knows what they're thinking with him.

Gustafsson is a solid look. If you can roll Dumolin-Gustafsson-POJ down the left, that's pretty solid.

Make that Murray for Dumba swap happen, get Letang up to Toronto for Nylander, and you have a solid D corps. I'm still a proponent of not letting Riikola go.

But then again, I'm all about rolling 3 solid pairings evenly. There's only a few TRUE #1 dmen in the league. Eat minutes, QB a PP, kill penalties, etc. And they get paid. Letang is NOT that.

I would gladly add JJ for Rask into the Minnesota deal.

You're also forgetting about Marcus Pettersson, who I see zero chance of Rutherford moving. They like him, so Gustafsson doesn't have a spot.

Dumo-Marino
Pettersson-Dumba/Montour/Barrie
POJ/Riikola-UFA
xRuhwedel

I'd be fine with adding any of those 3 as the 2nd pairing RD if Letang is moved, and, I would be fine with Riikola and POJ splitting time as the 3rd pairing LD. Find another solid 3rd pairing RD, and game on.

[GSdrums87]

Could you look to Chicago for Murray and try to build something around Strome or DeBrincat?

Could you look to Minnesota for Murray to bring back someone like Dumba?

Adding pieces like McCann and Rust to push it along of course.

Also looking at FAs this offseason: Erik Gustafsson would be an interesting play. PP minded guy a couple years removed from. Huge year.

Random ramblings.

Chicago should have interest in Murray, but, I can't see them giving up Strome or DeBrincat. They don't have a ton of young guys....Strome, DeBrincat, Dach, and Kubalik are about it right now. Hopefully, GMJR doesn't want to revisit Saad. He's a UFA after this coming season, and, with the acquisition of Zucker, I think Saad is a bit in that same mold as Zucker and Rust, and adding another player of that ilk wouldn't work well.

Minnesota for Dumba seems like a possibility only if the Penguins move Letang somewhere else. Dumba is RD and accustomed to 20-23 minutes a night. He'd have to be 2nd pairing at least, and Penguins aren't going to bump Marino to 3rd pair. He's too good. Dumba is also 6M AAV...might be a little higher than Pens would want to pay, especially with Marino needing a new deal after next season. Expect Marino's deal to be at least 4M AAV. Maybe 4M AAV for a 2 year bridge. He'd be 26 and still an RFA, and at that point Penguins could give him a big deal. I don't think you would need much to a Murray for Dumba trade.

Gustafsson was supposedly on Penguins radar last year or two. But he's a LH LD, so that would be a blocker to POJ, and, if you aren't committed to moving Johnson, there's no point.

Well in my brain I'm committed to them moving on from JJ, but who knows what they're thinking with him.

Gustafsson is a solid look. If you can roll Dumolin-Gustafsson-POJ down the left, that's pretty solid.

Make that Murray for Dumba swap happen, get Letang up to Toronto for Nylander, and you have a solid D corps. I'm still a proponent of not letting Riikola go.

But then again, I'm all about rolling 3 solid pairings evenly. There's only a few TRUE #1 dmen in the league. Eat minutes, QB a PP, kill penalties, etc. And they get paid. Letang is NOT that.

I would gladly add JJ for Rask into the Minnesota deal.

You're also forgetting about Marcus Pettersson, who I see zero chance of Rutherford moving. They like him, so Gustafsson doesn't have a spot.

Dumo-Marino
Pettersson-Dumba/Montour/Barrie
POJ/Riikola-UFA
xRuhwedel

I'd be fine with adding any of those 3 as the 2nd pairing RD if Letang is moved, and, I would be fine with Riikola and POJ splitting time as the 3rd pairing LD. Find another solid 3rd pairing RD, and game on.

Totally am, you're right there.

Buddies and I are drinking and shooting the **** about the Pens, and I did mention adding a JJ for Rask swap in there for Murray and Dumba.

I like Dumba a lot. He had a down year, but he's got the ability.

If you can make that swap, unload your JJ and Bjugstad contracts, and bring in a Barrie? Hot diggity.

Still, I do look at Rust as a "sell high" candidate. He'll be what, 30 when he's due for a next contract? This season was an outlier in his last 4. Get younger, similar production on the right side for him if you can.

[Maestro]

Maybe instead of dealing Riikola out of the gate the Pens should consider switching out a strategy of play that clearly no longer works?

Just a thought.

That would require the coach to be good.

But the Pens have Sullivan.

.... For now .....

[Maestro]

So the coaches thought Rikola lacked "defensive awareness." It couldn"t have been any worse than the five guys that were standing around for the game winner in game 4 even though there were only two guys near them. The whole team lacked defensive awareness when they went 3-8 at the end of the season. In those 8 losses, they gave up 35 goals averaging almost 41/2 a game. Sullivan is not blameless but maybe that is why he was afraid to open it up more. Sort of what like Mike Johnston did because they both did not trust them defensively. Before that 3-8 stretch, the Pens had won three in a row after beating Toronto at home. They went to Toronto the next night thinking it was going to be a cakewalk and got their clocks cleaned 4-0. They came back home Sunday(unfortunately I was there) and looked horrible in a 5-2 loss to Buffalo. I truly believe this was the turning point in the season for them because they were never really the same team again and it carried itself into the playoffs.

Please mail this post to Jim Rutherford.

Although, if as a head coach you do not trust your defense, why not try a different player such as Riikola over Johnson?
The coach makes those decisions. He blew it.

[DelPen]

Murray and Johnson to Detroit for Bernier and one of the three 2nd rounders they have this year. That’s the type of deal we can expect if we can move Johnson. Johnson will take up space during a rebuild where Detroit is better off being bad to get more high picks and then in 4 years they can push back to being relevant.