Whitney out with pulled groin

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Postby Profiler on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:36 am

Matthew Monstar wrote:
Profiler wrote:What do these defensemen all have in common? Pronger, Schneider, Niedermayer, Zhitnik, Havelid, Chara, Spacek, Lydman, Tallinder, Corvo, Aucoin, Sarich, Warrener, Foote, Hannan, Norstrom, Zubov, Boucher, Lidstrom, Rafalski, Souray, Staios, Salei, Van Ryn, Blake, Stuart, Preissing, Tverdovskiy, Johnsson, Markov, Hamrlik, Zidlicky, Martin, White, Sutton, Witt, Mara, Malik, Redden, Phillips, Timonen, Hatcher, Rathje, Jovanovski, Morris, Boynton, Gonch, Sydor, Rivet, McLaren, Brewer, McKee, Boyle, Kuba, McCabe, Kubina, Kaberle, Mitchell, salo, Ohlund, Poti, and Pothier.

Give up? They all make as much, or more than the "overpaid bum" Ryan Whitney. Now, you look at that list, and tell me you wouldnt rather have him RIGHT NOW over at least (if not more) half the guys on that list? Forget potential. Look at that list people! Sure, there are guys on there that are better, but come on. Zhitnik? Boynton? Derian freakin' Hatcher? I understand you guys get upset because he isn't Ulf Samuelsson in front of his net, and will never get over that he doesnt use his size. I get it. But to act like you can find a better defenseman for the $$$$ we are paying him....I mean seriously, we spent $2.5 on Sydor last offseason, and he is making just as much as Whits. Go ahead and try to tell me he is better. I know it is an isolated instance, but seriously.

I know I will get slammed that this isnt the thread that this should be brought up in, but since shot were taken here, this is where I am putting it. I will wait with baited breath for the rebuttal from the Whits haters.


Cant people state an opinion of whitney? Dont throw a hissy fit, calm down.


Oh, I get it. You are not allowed to state an opinion on Whitney unless it is negative.....okay, I will make a mental note :roll:

I know it was mentioned in aother response after my original post, and I am not sure if it was a general question or to me inparticular: but I dont have a lovefest with Whitney, and get annoyed with his play in front of the net too, but the criticisim of his game is just way more than is deserved a lot of the time. Hell, you could say the same about Gonchar too. Not every defensman in the league is physical, and stong at every aspect of the game. If they were, you wouldn't see stiffs like Gill making $2 million a year on the hope he can at least be respectable at the other phases of the game, just so he can "clear the net". Ask Toronto fans how happy they are with McCabe's play in front of the net, or Habs fans about Souray in the past, or Philly fans about Hatcher. The fact is, coplete players dont grow on trees. Hell, ever when we do get a guy that can clear the crease, we then complain about how they are too slow, or how they cant move the puck, or get beat wide all the time. Well ladies and gentlemen, there are only two guys in the league that clear the net consisently, and DONT get beat wide: Phaneuf and Pronger. Thats it, thats the list.

I guess this is just a long way of saying that, unless you are a Sid, or a Mario, you are going to have some weaknesses in your game. Whitney and Gonch have trouble in front (and by the way, so did Larry Murphy....that is HOF'er Larry Murphy.......I am just saying....), Orpik and Gill has trouble with speed guys, Sydor is starting to lose a step, but it isnt like these guys dont bring other assets to the table. I understand people are going to vent here, that is what is so great about a message board. I hated Melichar, but I have to even admit I got tired of reading the same things over and over about him too. If you want to complain about a guys play, fine, but dont act like Alex Goligoski is going ot be the answer to teh Penguins defensive woes, because if you think the "hulking" 5'11 D-man is the answer to the net clearing problems, you are sadly mistaken.
Last edited by Profiler on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ron` on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:58 am

cojac wrote:
Ron` wrote:
canaan wrote:
pcm wrote:So when is the injury bug going to hit LGP.com? I think a few posters could use the rest.


if the people themselves get the flu, that means they stay in from work, class, and the outside world. This actually means they will be at home more and a little bit more bored, equaling in an increase in the number of posts of those users.

so, in closing, i say 'nay' to hoping that those people get sick with the flu. I secretly hope for a really, really unseasonably sunny and warm day. :wink:
I been sick for 5 days now with this wretched flu. I think it's finally passing.

2 weeks of sickness for me, getting better finally
Funny thats what my doc mentioned, it would be two weeks. I hope he's wrong.
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Postby Profiler on Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:01 am

eastonpensfan wrote:
PensBeerGeek wrote:
Matthew Monstar wrote:
PensBeerGeek wrote:
FuturePens wrote:Not a big loss in my opinion...Whitney is a disappointing and overrated talent...


Yep, because all of our defensemen are putting up 12 goals and 34 points this year.....what a hack.


Wonder how many goals he has helped put in our own net. I dont hate whitney, I just dont understand the lovefest for Whitney.


Well, right now Whitney has a +1, so apparently he's putting in more goals than he's "helping put in our own net".


Especially since a big chunk of Whit's goals come on the PP, a + rating is good for him.


But this doesnt take into account all the times goals would have been scored if (fill in goaltender) didn't bail him out...... :roll: LOL
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Postby Ron` on Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:22 am

Everyone wants a Phaneuf and for those watching the late game it's easy to see why. He's a monster and probably should have been tossed from this game already. Somehow he gets away with alot more than the average player :) 2-1 Ducks in third, but he's a one man wrecking crew and has the only goal for Calgary on the PP. Very spirited game.
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Postby crzymike on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:13 am

crayz wrote:not necessarily a bad thing. We will have a of key players well rested for the playoffs...not tired x straight months of grinding away. Sid should be full of energy, scuds is getting a nice 7-10 day break, hossa a few day, and roberts..
Totally disagree with your logic. First of all we have far too many injuries to overcome, thus it will likely hurt us in the standings and give us a worse playoff position. Giving players an occasional break is one thing but enough is enough (injuries) and this is CLEARLY far too much.

In addition a player like Malkin who now is FINALLY getting ample ice time is actually getting TOO MUCH ice time. I was a strong proponent of Geno getting about 22 minutes a game. MT though has played him far more then that (relatively speaking). There were a couple games he was OVER the 27 minute mark in ice time. Thats just insane. An one of those games was a BACK TO BACK situation. How crazy is that? He will be completely spent by the playoffs if this keeps up. Either MT plays him too much (25 minutes) or too little (under 20), I can't believe it's that difficult to find a happy medium there. :roll:
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:33 am

crzymike wrote:
crayz wrote:not necessarily a bad thing. We will have a of key players well rested for the playoffs...not tired x straight months of grinding away. Sid should be full of energy, scuds is getting a nice 7-10 day break, hossa a few day, and roberts..
Totally disagree with your logic. First of all we have far too many injuries to overcome, thus it will likely hurt us in the standings and give us a worse playoff position. Giving players an occasional break is one thing but enough is enough (injuries) and this is CLEARLY far too much.

In addition a player like Malkin who now is FINALLY getting ample ice time is actually getting TOO MUCH ice time. I was a strong proponent of Geno getting about 22 minutes a game. MT though has played him far more then that (relatively speaking). There were a couple games he was OVER the 27 minute mark in ice time. Thats just insane. An one of those games was a BACK TO BACK situation. How crazy is that? He will be completely spent by the playoffs if this keeps up. Either MT plays him too much (25 minutes) or too little (under 20), I can't believe it's that difficult to find a happy medium there. :roll:


Yeah its hard to find a silver lining with these injuries. When Roberts' injury was thought to be just the break, I was able to see that that could be a blessing, letting him rest up for the playoffs. But now, a strained ligament, even if he makes it back before the playoffs and gets a few games in, a ligament injury would be hard to recover from till the offseason for a 20 year old, nevermind a 42 year old.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:31 am

When Whitney's missed games in the past we've seen how bad the PP looked. Plus, everybody have already anointed Letang as Bobby Orr reincarnated. I guess we are going to see.

If Letang does shine getting a lot of #1PP minutes, though, it won't mean the end of Whitney. I will probably be the end of Gonchar after this season.
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:57 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:When Whitney's missed games in the past we've seen how bad the PP looked. Plus, everybody have already anointed Letang as Bobby Orr reincarnated. I guess we are going to see.

If Letang does shine getting a lot of #1PP minutes, though, it won't mean the end of Whitney. I will probably be the end of Gonchar after this season.


you want to see the PP drop off, have Gonchar sit out a few games.....
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:58 am

this is a case of addition by subtraction.....
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:14 am

edog wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:When Whitney's missed games in the past we've seen how bad the PP looked. Plus, everybody have already anointed Letang as Bobby Orr reincarnated. I guess we are going to see.

If Letang does shine getting a lot of #1PP minutes, though, it won't mean the end of Whitney. I will probably be the end of Gonchar after this season.


you want to see the PP drop off, have Gonchar sit out a few games.....


Oh, I agree completely. I just think that they'd be willing to move Gonchar, given that he is going to be extremely marketable, if Letang can show them something.

Frankly, I'm skeptical that Letang is going to be The Guy on the power play. More likely that Whitney, hopefully, is The Guy. And then, that Letang becomes the other guy (like Whitney is now).

However, I know that Whitney bashers will disagree with this.
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Postby Pitts on Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:25 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:
edog wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:When Whitney's missed games in the past we've seen how bad the PP looked. Plus, everybody have already anointed Letang as Bobby Orr reincarnated. I guess we are going to see.

If Letang does shine getting a lot of #1PP minutes, though, it won't mean the end of Whitney. I will probably be the end of Gonchar after this season.


you want to see the PP drop off, have Gonchar sit out a few games.....


Oh, I agree completely. I just think that they'd be willing to move Gonchar, given that he is going to be extremely marketable, if Letang can show them something.

Frankly, I'm skeptical that Letang is going to be The Guy on the power play. More likely that Whitney, hopefully, is The Guy. And then, that Letang becomes the other guy (like Whitney is now).

However, I know that Whitney bashers will disagree with this.

You are correct Bill. Whitney has far more powerplay prowess than Letang shows. That may change in a season or two, but I find that hard to believe.
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Postby upjicecats52 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 11:56 am

mikey287 wrote:A big fat "I told you so" to all the people that didn't want Joel "The Answer" Kwiatkowski acquired at the deadline...


LOL
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Postby Kovy27 on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:00 pm

Image
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Postby Dickie Dunn on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:07 pm

Pitts wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:
edog wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:When Whitney's missed games in the past we've seen how bad the PP looked. Plus, everybody have already anointed Letang as Bobby Orr reincarnated. I guess we are going to see.

If Letang does shine getting a lot of #1PP minutes, though, it won't mean the end of Whitney. I will probably be the end of Gonchar after this season.


you want to see the PP drop off, have Gonchar sit out a few games.....


Oh, I agree completely. I just think that they'd be willing to move Gonchar, given that he is going to be extremely marketable, if Letang can show them something.

Frankly, I'm skeptical that Letang is going to be The Guy on the power play. More likely that Whitney, hopefully, is The Guy. And then, that Letang becomes the other guy (like Whitney is now).

However, I know that Whitney bashers will disagree with this.

You are correct Bill. Whitney has far more powerplay prowess than Letang shows. That may change in a season or two, but I find that hard to believe.


I think that has more to do with Letang being on the 2nd power play unit than with his ability to perform on the power play. Don't get me wrong, Whitney is a hell of an offensive defenseman and does a great job on the power play, I just don't envision him as a power play quarterback. I think what is most lacking in Whitney as a PP quarterback is his lack of lateral skating ability. Gonchar and Letang move much quicker across the blueline than Whitney does. Whitney moves at more of a plodding pace.
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Postby bill from turtle creek on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:20 pm

Time will tell. I believe that people want to badly see things in Letang that may not be there, for some reason.
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Postby FrozenNuts on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:24 pm

DontToewsMeBro wrote:Well...this is one of those injuries you except to happen along the line. Hossa getting hurt was a freak accident and really is dissapointing, as was Crosby's.


What is so freak accident about a stage I MCL? You act like the hockey gods smite the pens with furious anger. Its a typical short-term injury.
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Postby Profiler on Sat Mar 01, 2008 12:34 pm

edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......
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Postby Mr. Colby on Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:49 pm

I'm excited to see Goligoski play the next few games on the PP... too bad it's at the expense of Whitney (who i still am not sold on, I personally think he's a product of the team he's on. But i also have not given up on him, he's still young. He also doesn't suck for anyone who says that)
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Postby Matthew Monstar on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:08 pm

Kovy27 wrote:Image


You are a god.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:21 pm

Letang is pointless his last 9 games with a -4 rating:

http://www.nhl.com/nhl/app?service=page&page=PlayerDetail&playerId=8471724&tab=gbgt

I watched Letang play ~ 15 games at the WJC and that is where it was obvious he was a strong 2 way Dman and wasn't an offensive specialist despite the LGP.com groupthink, but just as obvious was his not being a Bobby Orr offensive clone. I didn't watch him play more than a few games in the QMJHL, but I think the anointment of him as some NHL point producing machine is very premature.

He doesn't move the puck very quickly at this level. He seems to hold it for a few extra seconds.

He also only has 5 ES points in 47 games. His ES point per game rate is about the same as Sydor's and actually worse than Orpik's.

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?formids=PropertySelection%2CPropertySelection_0%2CPropertySelection_1%2CPropertySelection_2%2CPropertySelection_3%2CPropertySelection_4%2CPropertySelection_5%2CSubmit&component=reportBuilder.%24Form&page=Home&service=direct&submitmode=submit&submitname=&PropertySelection=0&PropertySelection_0=0&PropertySelection_1=24&PropertySelection_2=5&PropertySelection_3=0&PropertySelection_4=0&PropertySelection_5=8&Submit=Get+Stats

Hal Gill has a whopping 19 ES points. I think that could mean a few things. I suspect his outlet passing must be better than I thought because obviously Gill isn't picking up ES points by rushing the puck. The Leafs also could have played a system that fed the points in the offensive zone and Gill picked up assists off his point shots.

The flip side is this helps explain why Gill's +/- wasn't totally in the toilet with the Leafs. As visual observation of Gill over many years in Boston and Toronto indicates, he isn't a very effective defender in open ice ES situations, especially without the hooking, holding, interference, etc he used against Jagr pre-lockout. His ES points masked the fact he was on the ice for quite a few goals against with the Leafs this season. Gill will help on the PK where he can play in space to protect his lower quadrant of the ice, but he is a defensive liability at ES.

Some interesting numbers on the subjective stats:

http://www.nhl.com/nhlstats/app?formids=PropertySelection%2CPropertySelection_0%2CPropertySelection_1%2CPropertySelection_2%2CPropertySelection_3%2CPropertySelection_4%2CPropertySelection_5%2CSubmit&component=reportBuilder.%24Form&page=Home&service=direct&submitmode=submit&submitname=&PropertySelection=0&PropertySelection_0=0&PropertySelection_1=24&PropertySelection_2=5&PropertySelection_3=0&PropertySelection_4=0&PropertySelection_5=11&Submit=Get+Stats

The much maligned Whitney's turnover rate per game isn't much higher than the much beloved Letang. Adjusted for TOI they are probably equal.

Hal Gill's turnover rate is through the roof. I'm sure some of that can be explained by different home stat keeping subjective standards, but Gill probably does look to force the puck up ice frequently which explains his high ES assist totals, but he also is a turnover machine.
Last edited by Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby canaan on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:23 pm

that is the longest link i have ever seen.
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Postby Ron` on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:33 pm

This may be the widest thread ever too :)
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:34 pm

NHL.com stats sorts send back huge URLs. I'm not a techie so I can't explain why.
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Postby canaan on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:38 pm

i like using sites like this http://www.tiny.cc/ to shorten links of that sort

just some food for future use :)
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Postby edog on Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:52 pm

Profiler wrote:
edog wrote:this is a case of addition by subtraction.....


Yeah, because we all know that anyone would rather have "Dont call me Kendall" Gill in the lineup than Whitney :roll: Please, pass along whatever drugs you are on......


:roll:
Gill is far more suited to playoff hockey than Norris Trophy ever will be.....let me remind you they gave up 50+ shots to the Islanders only 2 nights prior before Gill was ever in there.....
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